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Old 09-08-2009, 03:25 PM #1
raehl
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Somebody please steal this idea ("Elite Field" Paint Manufacturer Program)

EDIT: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPEEDBALL OR TOURNAMENT PLAYERS! This idea is for recreational fields where first-time players are present. It is not in any way suggested for tournaments or tournament practice. End edit.

The numbers here are for illustrative purposes. I have no idea if they are accurate, but the concept holds even if they are not. Assumption (or wild guess): It costs $20 to manufacture a case of paint that wholesales for $30 that a field sells for $60.

Elite Field Program:

Manufacturer creates a specific line of reserved-color elite field paint that sells wholesale at $70.

Fields who want to be in the elite program must exclusively use this $70 paint at their field, and must agree to charge at least $200/case for it (or $50/500 rounds).

At these prices, players will shoot 25% of the paint they are shooting now, but:

- The manufacturer gets the same amount of margin selling one case instead of 4, plus an extra $10/case (or $2.50 per player).
- The field gets the same amount of margin selling one case instead of 4, plus another $10/case (or $2.50 per customer)
- The field additionally saves 75% on shipping expenses
- The player saves $10 per day on paint. (A player who used to pay $60 to shoot 2000 paintballs will now pay $50 to shoot 500 paintballs.)

The field takes the extra $2.50/player and puts it into improving their field.

The manufacturer takes the extra $2.50/player and gives it back to the elite field in the form of advertising support. The manufacturer creates a general ad campaign, including creative for local media (newspaper, TV, radio, as appropriate) and more importantly targeted ads on Facebook/MySpace. The manufacturer only needs one set of creative for the country that subs in the local Elite field for wherever the ads are targeted. So basically the same ad, swap in different pictures, field name, and addy/contact info.


There.

Fields get more money.
Manufacturers get more money.
Costs for players go down.
Fun for players goes up.
Number of players go up - which leads to even more money for fields and manufacturers.



Everybody wins.


- Chris
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Last edited by raehl : 09-20-2009 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 09-08-2009, 04:17 PM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post
Costs for players go down.

- Chris
Let me say that I am a player, I have been for almost 10 years now. Im not some silver spoon kid, Im 27 with a house, car payments, insurance, etc..
I honestly DO NOT know the business side of things. I will not pretend I do. All of my views are from a players perspective.

Im not seeing how dropping $200+ for one case would make the cost for me go down. It would honestly force me out of the sport. I for one, would NOT go to any field that charged that much for one case. The last time I went playing, I purchased a case of Marbilizer from the field for $60, I shot about 600rnds. Total cost out of my pocket that day was about $140 for me and two others to play, non-rental, non-BYOP field fee.
IF you are going to nail players with $200/case PLUS field fee, and it is a FPO (since that is the only way I see you making ANYONE pay that much for a case) field, you are going to put your head through a noose.
Why?
If you buy a case, and do not SHOOT that whole case, you now have very expensive paint that you can no longer 'play' with, since you cant bring it back (most FPOs that I have seen wont even let you bring their brand of paint back, you must buy NEW every time)

You will drive players away because suddenly a $100 day of paintball just doubled in price. It is hard enough for some people to save up that much every month/pay line/weekend/etc with bills and such.

People will not have as enjoyable a time because they will be forced to 'count their shots'. You would basically force everyone to 'play like they have pumps' so now what is the advantage of me having spent $1000's on equipment when I could grab a Brass Eagle pump?

Personally, I enjoy speedball far more then woodsball, as do most of my friends. You are now alienating 'non-tourny' speed ball players since we cannot play how the game NEEDs to be played, and forcing us back into the woods.

Do you really think people will want to bring their friends to a place with prices like that? I dont care if it is like Disney Land.

---
I do find it ironic though, THE BEST paintball fields I have been to were STARTED BY PLAYERS. They seem to be the ones who understand the game the most, and understand how prices directly effect players. They might not be rolling in the money, but most knew what they were getting into when they started it. The people who are in it for the pure 'business' aspect of it dont get it at all, and try to wring every nickle and dime they can for anything they can, and are hurting a small niche market because they see how expensive the sport is and they try to make it MORE expensive.

Like I said, I am no business man, though I have worked retail for most of my working life.
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Old 09-08-2009, 04:26 PM #3
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I should have been clear. Fields in the Elite Field Program don't sell cases of paint. They sell 500 round bags of paint for $50. If you want a case, you can buy 4 bags for $200. No case-volume discount, because encouraging volume is precisely not the point.

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Old 09-08-2009, 06:02 PM #4
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Chris, as usual I like the concept behind your idea and may even like to see it implemented (Didn't you post this one about a year back, once before?) but I don't see it happening in the current environment, and I don't see any paintball manufacturer jumping onboard anytime soon.

The concept is neat, elegant, has benefits for most involved... But until you can find a manufacturer willing to go out on the limb and get things rolling you won't see it happening. The good news is that quite a few fields have skipped out the manufacturer part and simply do charge "enough" for their paint to have the majority of the benefits in place...

I do think $50/bag is a bit high, but until I see it in action I cannot judge for certain. I think other associated costs would be the final determining factor, since my goal is usually to spend $40-65 a day when I play... So if the field fees/air fees added more than $15 I would be pretty much screwed on that.

All that aside, however, I still like this idea.
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Old 09-08-2009, 06:47 PM #5
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The $50/bag may be too high. The big variable I don't know is what the actual gross margin on a case of paint is.


But one thing I "designed" into this is there really is no limb - anybody is free to keep going the old way, and a manufacturer can run the old system alongside the new system just fine. It's opt-in for both sides. So if it works, everyone will end up opting in, and if it's not, you blew some ad budget a little differently than you otherwise would have.


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Old 09-08-2009, 07:09 PM #6
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yeah youll lose players left and right
i pay 60 to 75 a case and if it goes much higher im out because im not really going to shoot less ive been shooting about the same for a decade now. maybe if i go pump but im not that devoted to it. Ive owned a field also so i know players are not going to get behind that 200 a case is silly talk thats .10 a shot
but keep coming up with ideas one of them may help.
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:00 PM #7
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I don't understand how costs for players would go down? Personally, I can barely afford to pay 60 bucks a case of paintballs, and if prices were to rise, let alone to 200 a case, I would probably drop the sport no questions asked. When you say players will shoot 25% of the balls, I think you have a misconception of how people think. Whether they have more or less balls, players will shoot what they have to shoot, its a matter of how long the paintballs will last them. Normally, a case would last a player a day of play, and whether the person purchases only 500 balls or pays 200 for a whole case, the person would not be content when the day is over. Having paid 200 for a case, the player would definitely be "counting shots" as darkapollo mentioned, while with 500 balls, the player would either end up not being able to afford the paintballs to play half the day when he's paid for a full day's admission, or in some cases, end up playing like a pump when they worked hard to pay for the expensive electros. Especially in this economy and sport, expensive prices will not benefit players and will not bring in new players. Since the day I got into the sport I have tried to get friends to start, but the outrageous prices have always been the sole cause of driving them away. Forcing players to play pump with their electro, play a fourth of the day and go home unsatisfied, or forcing them to pay 200 a case will cause current players to leave the sport when everyone is trying to bring new players in to help paintball become recognized.

I am not saying I know everything and speak for everyone when I say this is not a good idea, but this is my 2 cents and I hope it helps you to see through the eyes of another player.

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Old 09-08-2009, 08:05 PM #8
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I have seen and to this day still seeplayers spending $100 per case for QUALITY fields.

I have also in the past seen companies that sold branded colors as "members only paint", all of who are now owned by KEE.

At the end of the day it all comes down to stop selling the paint, start selling the experience. People will pay a resonable fee for paint if the field/experience warrants the cost.
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:23 PM #9
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I am not saying I know everything and speak for everyone when I say this is not a good idea, but this is my 2 cents and I hope it helps you to see through the eyes of another player.
I am a player. More importantly, I have been in the position where I have booked outings for over 100 first-time recreational players.

Not a single one of them would even know that 500 rounds isn't enough paint for a day of paintball. Actually, they wouldn't know that 10 rounds wasn't enough.

All they know is that I said it would cost $40 to play for the day, they paid $40, and they got X paint. Whatever X is, by definition, that's how much paint they think they should shoot in a day. So if you make X 500 rounds, then the players will pace themselves to shoot 500 rounds of paint in a day.

I have seen this play out over 15 years, in my own personal experience and in the experience of hundreds of others who have done the same thing. 500 rounds is plenty for a newer player, and it could be plenty for an experienced player, and it's definitely cheaper, because you don't have to manufacture the other 1,500 paintballs.


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Old 09-08-2009, 08:45 PM #10
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500 rounds, aint that umm 50 seconds of paint? Thank god I get paint at cost or free.

But yes for new players, the root and core money makers for a field, 500 rounds is enough if manged properly (ie keep the fresh meat away from the rapid dog rec players) and will turn into repeat customers who will down the road want to consume more paint as they move to more advanced play forms.
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:02 PM #11
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It works, however, it will just start the cycle over again.

This is how it was, then some customer who played alot decided the field owner was 'ripping' people off and started a field close by and under cut. Repeat a few times, fields peaked, stores peaked, playing peaked... then it crashed.

I have 'degraded' into splitting a case w/ my sons and playing pump mech... I don't think I have ever had this much fun. Its great. But it is unbelievably hard to convince a 'modern' paintballer to put down his ego/dm w/e and play a round of pump/mech. IF they do, they can't stop talking about.

Regardless, however the field needs to get their dollar, get it. High entrance and 25% mark up on paint, fine. Free membership/entry and 150/case, fine. But whatever you charge your customers do two things:
1. Keep the paintball extreme/enthusiast away from rentals - never break this rule.
2. Refs should be emcees and make sure as many customers get that moment that gives them something to talk about.

The greatest crimes I have seen the last few years is the 'processing' of rental players. Take their money, push them out with horrible refs and never see them again.

If they need to read rants on the interweb, they shouldn't be in business. However, there is a Massive collection of smart people sitting behind desks at paintball companies. Companies that desperately need growth. If you want to talk fixes, they should quietly show up for a rental party at their customers and pay/play, then constructively explain to half these hillbilly absent owners why they are killing the infant paintball customer on the first and last day of their paintball career..
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:02 PM #12
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this whole idea while great for the manufacturer and even the store owners is a killer on players. last time i played i only spent 20 bux and that was because i had leftover paint and all i had to buy was admission. honestly i cannot help it that i shoot 3 bags of paint over the course of 5 hours. that is pretty good for me. but the second they start charging 150 dollars for 3 bags of paint i am going to do one of 3 things. either sell my gun and get out of the sport all together. set up a field in my own back yard, or switch to pump. but there is no way i can start spending 200 dollars a week because i dont have that much to spend. the only person who really wins is the paintball manufacturer because they are probably making it for 10 dollars a case and selling it for 75. i just do not see any field manager taking on this idea because it would deff kill business and drive all the players out to surounding fields. it is a good idea but idealistic.
that is just my 2 cents
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:24 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintballRepUSA View Post
At the end of the day it all comes down to stop selling the paint, start selling the experience. People will pay a resonable fee for paint if the field/experience warrants the cost.
Very well said.


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1. Keep the paintball extreme/enthusiast away from rentals - never break this rule.
2. Refs should be emcees and make sure as many customers get that moment that gives them something to talk about.

The greatest crimes I have seen the last few years is the 'processing' of rental players. Take their money, push them out with horrible refs and never see them again.
Exactly. People who are playing for the first time are just waiting to be hooked. We've got guns and we shoot them at each other. What is not to love? Fields have the opportunity with each new rental to hook that player for life. Or they can make a couple bucks off them and chase them away from paintball forever.
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:39 PM #14
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Sure that works if you're trying to get people into the "shoot less have more fun" part of paintball, but most of the people I've met don't even start playing paintball because of how expensive it is in the first place (I'm referring to the average broke teenager here). I don't see how raising prices to be completely ridiculous is helping this sport at all. Just a little bit of my opinion
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:48 PM #15
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Speedball players will not be happy as they are used to playing with 2000 rounds for a reasonable price. This idea will cause every one of them to go play somewhere else. Unless every field within like a 100 mile radius all bought into this program then the few fields that did would quickly go out of business as they wouldn't be able to compete against a field that charges a reasonable amount.

The advantage is you get some new people but I fail to see how this would encourage all that much growth since I'm sure you will lose a lot of people with those ridiculous paint prices. You might pick up a few renters who come to play like once every few months but you will certainly lose the regulars who used to play every weekend.

Chris I know you are fond of this limiting paint idea but this method will cause too many people grief and you're gambling that the new players who might like it more with less paint flying around will actually be steady players. I think an easier way to implement it would be to limit the amount of pods players can bring onto the field. As a player that would be much easier to stomach than suddenly having a 400% markup per case of paint.
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:19 PM #16
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most ridiculous thing i have ever heard
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:32 PM #17
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The numbers here are for illustrative purposes. I have no idea if they are accurate, but the concept holds even if they are not. Assumption (or wild guess): It costs $20 to manufacture a case of paint that wholesales for $30 that a field sells for $60.

Elite Field Program:

Manufacturer creates a specific line of reserved-color elite field paint that sells wholesale at $70.

Fields who want to be in the elite program must exclusively use this $70 paint at their field, and must agree to charge at least $200/case for it (or $50/500 rounds).

At these prices, players will shoot 25% of the paint they are shooting now, but:

- The manufacturer gets the same amount of margin selling one case instead of 4, plus an extra $10/case (or $2.50 per player).
- The field gets the same amount of margin selling one case instead of 4, plus another $10/case (or $2.50 per customer)
- The field additionally saves 75% on shipping expenses
- The player saves $10 per day on paint. (A player who used to pay $60 to shoot 2000 paintballs will now pay $50 to shoot 500 paintballs.)

The field takes the extra $2.50/player and puts it into improving their field.

The manufacturer takes the extra $2.50/player and gives it back to the elite field in the form of advertising support. The manufacturer creates a general ad campaign, including creative for local media (newspaper, TV, radio, as appropriate) and more importantly targeted ads on Facebook/MySpace. The manufacturer only needs one set of creative for the country that subs in the local Elite field for wherever the ads are targeted. So basically the same ad, swap in different pictures, field name, and addy/contact info.


There.

Fields get more money.
Manufacturers get more money.
Costs for players go down.
Fun for players goes up.
Number of players go up - which leads to even more money for fields and manufacturers.



Everybody wins.


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Old 09-08-2009, 10:35 PM #18
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look, I get the thought and theory behind the idea, but I think it's absolutley rediculous. If you've got a rec-field where kids go/new players who don't want to get pummeled, have a seperate field for them, how much more will a field REALLY make by selling them a 500 bag for 15 bucks instead of 50? I actually see fields making less money cause the people paying 50 for a bag will also think it's absolutley nuts. they'll say "why go and pay 50 for a BAG plus entry when i can go to field b, spend the same and play for 4 days?" Plus, how are fields making more money. you say a case wholesales for 30? so if a field sells a bag (field pays 8 bucks/bag) and they sell it for say 14. that is a $6 profit. PLUS they'll probably sell more because it's cheaper. To me, it just makes sense for nobody

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I am a player. More importantly, I have been in the position where I have booked outings for over 100 first-time recreational players.

Not a single one of them would even know that 500 rounds isn't enough paint for a day of paintball. Actually, they wouldn't know that 10 rounds wasn't enough.

All they know is that I said it would cost $40 to play for the day, they paid $40, and they got X paint. Whatever X is, by definition, that's how much paint they think they should shoot in a day. So if you make X 500 rounds, then the players will pace themselves to shoot 500 rounds of paint in a day.

I have seen this play out over 15 years, in my own personal experience and in the experience of hundreds of others who have done the same thing. 500 rounds is plenty for a newer player, and it could be plenty for an experienced player, and it's definitely cheaper, because you don't have to manufacture the other 1,500 paintballs.


- Chris
so here you're saying that you're bending these people over for $50+entry because they don't know any better? that just doesn't seem right to me. Instead of ****ing them via price, offer a package (as I've seen MANY places do) for say $45-60, give them a gun, a mask and a bag of paint, there's you're experience. They don't get scared away by the price, and the field owners make more money than they do in your program. Like it's been said, just keep them away from the more experienced/tournament players and they can have that experience that you're talking about
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:05 PM #19
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they'll say "why go and pay 50 for a BAG plus entry when i can go to field b, spend the same and play for 4 days?"
They may say that. They may even go to that other field, where they will be shot at by four times as many paintballs no matter how many paintballs they choose to shoot, and will be left with three choices:

1) Play at the new field, getting four times as much paint shot at them as they shoot at others.
2) Play at the new field, but shoot as much paint as everyone else is shooting, making playing there MORE expensive than playing at the original field.
3) Go back to the first field.


What do you think the vast majority of players are going to choose to do?


I know for a fact that the answer for the vast majority of recreational players is 3. Horizon has proven it, but I've seen it happen in a few other markets I'm aware of where there is a high-paint-price field in the vicinity of a low paint price field. The low paint price field is barely hanging on.



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Old 09-08-2009, 11:07 PM #20
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So paint manufacturers will be making $40 more/case wholesale on this specific paint. Field owner would be making $32.50/bag, $130 case.

Player would be paying $35/bag, $140/case more. Normal air ball would turn into a one ball sniper fest if all they had to shoot all day was a bag, providing anyone shows up to play now. People stop buying $1000 markers if all they need now is a 200 dollar pump gun made in china. Established gun/hopper/board manufacturers hurt.

In order for this to work the entire field would have to be run like this. Running whatever they had in place prior and this new program at the same time would fall on its face. No one would buy the 50 dollar bag of paint compared to the 15 dollar one.

So how does this help? I only see paint manufactures and fields benefiting from this, if players continue to show up at said field after this is put in place.

tl;dr: No.



If you're so hellbent on shooting less paint and getting new kids into the sport, expand your young guns league.
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:10 PM #21
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Durham, NH
Zeoalex plays in the APPA D4 division
Zeoalex has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Zeoalex has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Zeoalex has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post
They may say that. They may even go to that other field, where they will be shot at by four times as many paintballs no matter how many paintballs they choose to shoot, and will be left with three choices:

1) Play at the new field, getting four times as much paint shot at them as they shoot at others.
2) Play at the new field, but shoot as much paint as everyone else is shooting, making playing there MORE expensive than playing at the original field.
3) Go back to the first field.


What do you think the vast majority of players are going to choose to do?


I know for a fact that the answer is 3. Horizon has proved it, but I've seen it happen in a few other markets I'm aware of where there is a high-paint-price field in the vicinity of a low paint price field. The low paint price field is barely hanging on.



- Chris
Like I said, that's why you MUST seperate the two gropus, end of story that's how they get the experience
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