Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-10-2009, 11:39 AM #1
PAINTBALL ZILLA
Canobie Paintball Factory
 
PAINTBALL ZILLA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Annual Supporting Member
PAINTBALL ZILLA helped look for balloons
The God Delusion

Hello ST: R. This is my first thread in ST:R. I've been reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins because recently I've been getting more and more into religion and philosophy in general. I was wondering if others have read this book, their opinions on it and suggestions to further my reading.
__________________
East Coast Army
Bleeding Green

Canobie Paintball | PB Wizard | XS Energy | NHIP
Zilla Photography
PAINTBALL ZILLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 08-10-2009, 11:44 AM #2
hsilman
Disgustipated
 
hsilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
there are few serious books written in the same tone or style as the God delusion, but if you'd like to just give yourself a big boner over how much cooler and smarter you are than religious people i'd recommend "Why god is Not great" by Christopher Hitchens(I think that's how you spell it) or Dawkins' other book.

If however, you have a serious interest in a philosopher who is an atheist, I recommend being and nothingness by Jean-Paul Sartre, or Beyond Good and Evil by Neitzsche.

sorry about the inconsistency in capitalization, this keyboard blows.

if you're interested in philosophy in general, i'd recommend other books, but since you are reading the God Delusion I tailored my answer appropriately(imho).
__________________
This is necessary. Life feeds on life
feeds on life
feeds on life
hsilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 12:05 PM #3
PAINTBALL ZILLA
Canobie Paintball Factory
 
PAINTBALL ZILLA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Annual Supporting Member
PAINTBALL ZILLA helped look for balloons
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
there are few serious books written in the same tone or style as the God delusion, but if you'd like to just give yourself a big boner over how much cooler and smarter you are than religious people i'd recommend "Why god is Not great" by Christopher Hitchens(I think that's how you spell it) or Dawkins' other book.

If however, you have a serious interest in a philosopher who is an atheist, I recommend being and nothingness by Jean-Paul Sartre, or Beyond Good and Evil by Neitzsche.

sorry about the inconsistency in capitalization, this keyboard blows.

if you're interested in philosophy in general, i'd recommend other books, but since you are reading the God Delusion I tailored my answer appropriately(imho).
I'll definitely take a look at those books. I guess I'd consider myself an atheist, but I'm fairly open to whichever argument convinces me the most. It just seems that from a logical standpoint atheism makes more sense.

Books that take the tone of the movie Religulous I'm not interested in. I found that movie to be incredibly one sided. The God Delusion seems so far to have a more intellectual slant to it.

Thanks for the suggestions.

What do people think of TGD? Obviously it's going to be somewhat biased, but it appears to be more considerate of both sides than I originally thought it would be.
__________________
East Coast Army
Bleeding Green

Canobie Paintball | PB Wizard | XS Energy | NHIP
Zilla Photography
PAINTBALL ZILLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 12:07 PM #4
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
I read The God Delusion. I liked it. It is laying on my bed right now
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 12:14 PM #5
hsilman
Disgustipated
 
hsilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
I read The God Delusion. I liked it. It is laying on my bed right now
I'm unfriending you on facebook

I found TGD to be intellectually dishonest. Dawkins tricks you by starting with solid logical arguments and then acting like those arguments provide the basis for his personal opinions, when they don't.

It was entertaining and easily accessible though, so I give it points for that. But I just dislike Dawkins in general, his entire attitude and writing style turn me off. I find myself to always be skeptical of anyone who is so sure that his opinion on things is the final word. And Dawkins epitomizes that viewpoint, IMHO.
__________________
This is necessary. Life feeds on life
feeds on life
feeds on life
hsilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 12:19 PM #6
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
I'm unfriending you on facebook

I found TGD to be intellectually dishonest. Dawkins tricks you by starting with solid logical arguments and then acting like those arguments provide the basis for his personal opinions, when they don't.

It was entertaining and easily accessible though, so I give it points for that. But I just dislike Dawkins in general, his entire attitude and writing style turn me off. I find myself to always be skeptical of anyone who is so sure that his opinion on things is the final word. And Dawkins epitomizes that viewpoint, IMHO.
I did read this when I was really just getting into philosophy, so I am sure I would have a COMPLETELY different take on it a second time through. I also want to reread Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. You know, once you get into philosophy, for the beginning you are become exponentially aware: I am still in that stage. But I believe I am a hell of a lot different then when I read the book.
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 12:34 PM #7
madgoat
Troll_Extraordinaire
 
madgoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Homewood, IL
madgoat has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
I'm unfriending you on facebook

I found TGD to be intellectually dishonest. Dawkins tricks you by starting with solid logical arguments and then acting like those arguments provide the basis for his personal opinions, when they don't.

It was entertaining and easily accessible though, so I give it points for that. But I just dislike Dawkins in general, his entire attitude and writing style turn me off. I find myself to always be skeptical of anyone who is so sure that his opinion on things is the final word. And Dawkins epitomizes that viewpoint, IMHO.
Yea he has to be one of the most arrogant people I know of.
__________________
Honey Badger University Professor of Women Studies, Dean of Student Affairs
madgoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 01:12 PM #8
pkl2k3
Yarp
 
pkl2k3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Kent
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
I'm unfriending you on facebook

I found TGD to be intellectually dishonest. Dawkins tricks you by starting with solid logical arguments and then acting like those arguments provide the basis for his personal opinions, when they don't.

It was entertaining and easily accessible though, so I give it points for that. But I just dislike Dawkins in general, his entire attitude and writing style turn me off. I find myself to always be skeptical of anyone who is so sure that his opinion on things is the final word. And Dawkins epitomizes that viewpoint, IMHO.
__________________
Hey Frenchie...Big mouth, SMALL heart...
لبناني
† † †

pkl2k3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 02:16 PM #9
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by madgoat View Post
Yea he has to be one of the most arrogant people I know of.
Yeah, I mean, he is obviously a douche bag.
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 02:21 PM #10
Hirophant0
Historian at large
 
Hirophant0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Hirophant0 is an NCPA player
Hirophant0 plays in the APPA D5 division
[quote=PAINTBALL ZILLA;61174688]
Books that take the tone of the movie Religulous I'm not interested in. I found that movie to be incredibly one sided. The God Delusion seems so far to have a more intellectual slant to it.

Thanks for the suggestions.
QUOTE]

I find Dawkins to be too much of a pompous ***. His is similar to a fire and brimstone preacher, only on the other side of the spectrum. His prose is too vitriolic for my tastes. One of the best books I've read on the matter of atheism is Dan Barker's Godless Here is a link: Book on Amazon

As the sub-title suggests, Dan Barker was once a hardcore Christian evangelical preacher who become an atheist. I like the book because it is an interesting story of a mans personal struggle to abandon the life he has been living and the internal conflicts he had to go through. At the same time, the book offers many good logical, philosophical, and/or theological arguments against belief in a god.
__________________
CONSUMER REPORTS 30+/0-
Hirophant0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 02:31 PM #11
Јon
 
 
Јon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Letter to a Christian Nation - Sam Harris
The Demon Haunted World - Carl Sagan (I believe this should be required reading in Science class)

Both are good starts.
Јon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 03:14 PM #12
xtoughguyx
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
I like dawkins and i liked the god delusion.

many think he is arrogant, or a douche, but I really see where he is coming from.
__________________
OC straightedge **** you.
xtoughguyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 06:52 PM #13
warbeak2099
That is my foot!
 
warbeak2099's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Wouldn't u like to know!
 has been a member for 10 years
I think the problem with people like Dawkins and Harris is the way they speak. They don't seem to be able to get into the head of the Christians they argue against which is counter-productive to their goal. They make great points and raise some very valid issues with Christian monotheism, but they don't have enough of an understanding of what it's like to be Christian to appeal to the human logic of the people they're trying to convince. They come off instead as arrogant instead of objective and reasonable.

Their arguments are completely reasonable and valid, their delivery is simply arrogant and demeaning.
__________________
US Navy Baller
UL'd 07 PMR F/S, PM me if interested!
#12 Italian Baller
“The real test of a man is not how well he plays the role he has invented for himself, but how well he plays the role that destiny assigned to him.”
-Václav Havel
warbeak2099 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 07:52 PM #14
hsilman
Disgustipated
 
hsilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
Quote:
Originally Posted by warbeak2099 View Post
Their arguments are completely reasonable and valid, their delivery is simply arrogant and demeaning.
The entire book is one gigantic circle-jerking strawman argument, which Dawkins whole-heartedly admits when he says he has absolutely no concept of the arguments he is arguing against(he has stated this many times and for some reason dismissed it as a non-problem) but presents them anyways in his book. Presenting the argument of your opposition before refuting it is practically the definition of strawmanning. I don't know how you can call his arguments reasonable and valid when you attack the type of arguments he's making on a daily basis here on PbN.
__________________
This is necessary. Life feeds on life
feeds on life
feeds on life
hsilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 08:07 PM #15
madgoat
Troll_Extraordinaire
 
madgoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Homewood, IL
madgoat has achieved Level 3 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
The entire book is one gigantic circle-jerking strawman argument, which Dawkins whole-heartedly admits when he says he has absolutely no concept of the arguments he is arguing against(he has stated this many times and for some reason dismissed it as a non-problem) but presents them anyways in his book. Presenting the argument of your opposition before refuting it is practically the definition of strawmanning. I don't know how you can call his arguments reasonable and valid when you attack the type of arguments he's making on a daily basis here on PbN.
No, if you accurately represent the argument of the opposition before refuting it then its not strawmanning at all, it would be a sound argument. I don't know if I'm just misunderstanding what you are saying because I don't think you'd make a mistake like this.
__________________
Honey Badger University Professor of Women Studies, Dean of Student Affairs
madgoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 08:09 PM #16
ISmokeIce
Postmodern Sophist
 
ISmokeIce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Florida
I think he forgot a "not" and "accurately" somewhere in there.
__________________
"No passion is stronger in the breast of man than the desire to make others believe as he believes...It is not the love of truth, but desire to prevail that sets quarter against quarter and makes parish desire the downfall of parish. Each seeks peace of mind and subserviency rather than the triumph of truth and exaltation of virtue-- But these moralities belong, and should be left to the historian, since they are as dull as ditch water" - Orlando: A Biography
ISmokeIce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 08:53 PM #17
Zidane
Viva La Nation
 
Zidane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Mesa, AZ
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
The entire book is one gigantic circle-jerking strawman argument
I think you're getting The God Delusion confused with The Bible.
Zidane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 08:55 PM #18
ISmokeIce
Postmodern Sophist
 
ISmokeIce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zidane View Post
I think you're getting The God Delusion confused with The Bible.
What? Do you know what strawman refers to?
__________________
"No passion is stronger in the breast of man than the desire to make others believe as he believes...It is not the love of truth, but desire to prevail that sets quarter against quarter and makes parish desire the downfall of parish. Each seeks peace of mind and subserviency rather than the triumph of truth and exaltation of virtue-- But these moralities belong, and should be left to the historian, since they are as dull as ditch water" - Orlando: A Biography
ISmokeIce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 08:57 PM #19
PAINTBALL ZILLA
Canobie Paintball Factory
 
PAINTBALL ZILLA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Annual Supporting Member
PAINTBALL ZILLA helped look for balloons
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zidane View Post
I think you're getting The God Delusion confused with The Bible.
I lol'd
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISmokeIce View Post
What? Do you know what strawman refers to?
What is strawman? I've never heard that term before. Like I said, I'm new to this ****.
__________________
East Coast Army
Bleeding Green

Canobie Paintball | PB Wizard | XS Energy | NHIP
Zilla Photography
PAINTBALL ZILLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 09:04 PM #20
ISmokeIce
Postmodern Sophist
 
ISmokeIce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAINTBALL ZILLA View Post
I lol'd

What is strawman? I've never heard that term before. Like I said, I'm new to this ****.
It's a formal logical fallacy where you setup an argument and attack the argument without accuracy to the opposing idea that you're suppose to be arguing against. Basically, it's when someone misrepresents an opposing idea and says that the misrepresented idea is wrong.


The bible is collected mythology that recounts parables. As far as I know, the Bible cannot commit the strawman fallacy.
__________________
"No passion is stronger in the breast of man than the desire to make others believe as he believes...It is not the love of truth, but desire to prevail that sets quarter against quarter and makes parish desire the downfall of parish. Each seeks peace of mind and subserviency rather than the triumph of truth and exaltation of virtue-- But these moralities belong, and should be left to the historian, since they are as dull as ditch water" - Orlando: A Biography
ISmokeIce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 09:13 PM #21
PAINTBALL ZILLA
Canobie Paintball Factory
 
PAINTBALL ZILLA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Annual Supporting Member
PAINTBALL ZILLA helped look for balloons
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISmokeIce View Post
It's a formal logical fallacy where you setup an argument and attack the argument without accuracy to the opposing idea that you're suppose to be arguing against. Basically, it's when someone misrepresents an opposing idea and says that the misrepresented idea is wrong.


The bible is collected mythology that recounts parables. As far as I know, the Bible cannot commit the strawman fallacy.
Do you have an example of this? I think I get it, but I can't think up an example that I think works right.
__________________
East Coast Army
Bleeding Green

Canobie Paintball | PB Wizard | XS Energy | NHIP
Zilla Photography
PAINTBALL ZILLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump