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Old 08-03-2009, 11:15 PM #22
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Originally Posted by WorrFighter View Post
I would also be more prone to "break" my own moral rules, because I would have no one to answer to in my own mind.

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Old 08-03-2009, 11:16 PM #23
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He asked.
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Old 08-03-2009, 11:54 PM #24
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I would like to ask a question to the atheists of this group.

1) What drives your morals? Since there is no real advantage towards counter-instinctive behavior like self-sacrifice and forgiveness and you have no reason to say that you should do those things why do you choose to do them?

2) Without the influence of a religious driven society, do you feel like you would still have some sense of morals or do you feel that you choose to follow those morals because that is what is taught to you as culturally moral?
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Old 08-03-2009, 11:58 PM #25
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Originally Posted by warbeak2099 View Post
Proof for these ideas? Otherwise you're just like any other rambling fool. I've bolded the phrases you use that make your "opinion" utterly useless. Other than those, your entire paragraph there was a huge gogglygook of assumptions, speculation, and little to no logic to back any of it up.
I don't have time to source them since my books are all jumbled up right now in a big trunk, but social studies have shown that when passing judgment one usually puts reason to prejudices rather than let reason lead the judgment. One particular study was done on state and federal judges. Also, in hermenuetics I think Gadamer wrote extensively about the prejudices of people and how they were inevitable. And the catalyst of philosophy is Socrates regarding his own ignorance which few people admit to. Even great thinkers are blinded by their own wants.

Not sure what you mean by "logic." If my arguments are not contradicting, then they're consistent. If they are found to be relfective of society, they may very well be sound.

On natural law, just consider other schools of law and they pretty much do their own criticizing pretty well.

Also, my "opinion" being useless by reasong of hedging isn't logical.
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:28 AM #26
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Saying that you change your moral decisions based upon your religion is kind of a fallacy. Ultimatly there was some emotional choice to change how you view the world that caused you to change your religious outlook. It is this change that has affected your moral outlook not which title you attribute as your religion. I haven't ever met someone who responded too "Why did you do x?" because I'm a recent atheist convert!
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Old 08-04-2009, 01:02 PM #27
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Originally Posted by mynameisjonathon View Post
Saying that you change your moral decisions based upon your religion is kind of a fallacy. Ultimatly there was some emotional choice to change how you view the world that caused you to change your religious outlook. It is this change that has affected your moral outlook not which title you attribute as your religion. I haven't ever met someone who responded too "Why did you do x?" because I'm a recent atheist convert!
"Why did you change your mind and decided not to wait until marriage before having sex?"

"Because I no longer believed that I would be sinning and disobeying God by having sex before marriage."

Would be a simple example and one I have heard before.

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Old 08-04-2009, 01:31 PM #28
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:25 PM #29
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Originally Posted by JRunior View Post
"Why did you change your mind and decided not to wait until marriage before having sex?"

"Because I no longer believed that I would be sinning and disobeying God by having sex before marriage."

Would be a simple example and one I have heard before.

Jr,
Yup, good example. Or:

"Why do you go out and get drunk with your friends now?"

"Because I no longer believe that drinking to excess is going to anger a divine being. It's my body, and as long as I'm responsible, I can handle getting intoxicated."
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:57 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRunior View Post
"Why did you change your mind and decided not to wait until marriage before having sex?"

"Because I no longer believed that I would be sinning and disobeying God by having sex before marriage."

Would be a simple example and one I have heard before.

Jr,
I just don't think you see it the same way I do. They changed their mind because they wanted too, not because they became atheist. You change your mind then become atheist, not the other way around. Just because your atheist does not mean that you think it is acceptable to have sex before marriage. There isn't some sort of atheist code out there. You still have morals when you are atheist and everyone has different morals so I don't really see how people becoming atheist all of a sudden makes them do acts in the name of atheism.

Besides it’s not as if some Christians aren't out drinking excess alcohol from time to time.... Are they drinking alcohol because they are Christian? I hardly believe they would say that. I'm very sure there are Christians who engage in pre-material sex, in fact I know some. It's clearly not because they are atheist, it was a personal choice on their part with respect to how they morally feel about sex that had nothing to do with religion.
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:15 PM #31
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In all due respect that's why it is called a thought experiment. You 'know' God exists in your own way and we've seen this argument in numerous threads. None of it is relevant for this experiment. I'm just trying to see how believers practice what they preach in a sense. I'd be very interested in knowing how you feel you'd behave.

I have debates about super heroes even though I KNOW superman doesn't exist doesn't mean I can't theorize scenarios with that as a 'given' to continue the discussion.

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i completely understand (and thank you for not flaming me), but comparing superhero or comic book discussions is not the same paradigm as a what-if experiment about the existence of God, in my opinion. the antecedent doesn't follow the cause. in order to have the experiment, the variables would need to be established (at least in my opinion, and why I usually don't participate in what-if's) with their experimented constants.
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:19 PM #32
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SilentAssasin,

I'd be very interested to hear your response to my original question. I also agree with WarBeak, what you have done is put forth a 'no true scottsman' fallacy.

I too left the faith after years of participating. I knew my scriptures, I prayed nightly and at the time believed many prayers were answered. I sought inspiration and looked for answers through my prayers. I 'felt' the love of Christ and still I lost my faith.

Jr,
I don't agree with your assessment of his argument as a "no true scot" fallacy. With Christianity, and beliefs in general, there can be varying degrees of how strongly somebody adheres to their beliefs; however, the "no true scot" fallacy is based on the fact that you are either scottish or you aren't.
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:43 PM #33
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I don't agree with your assessment of his argument as a "no true scot" fallacy. With Christianity, and beliefs in general, there can be varying degrees of how strongly somebody adheres to their beliefs; however, the "no true scot" fallacy is based on the fact that you are either scottish or you aren't.
The 'No true Scottsman' fallacy has absolutely nothing to do with being Scottish or not.

The problem with what he put forth was that he believes that if you were a Christian and became an Atheist it means you couldn't have been a true Christian. Meaning, he believes that only Christians who always stay Christians were ever true Christians to begin with.

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Old 08-04-2009, 04:56 PM #34
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The 'No true Scottsman' fallacy has absolutely nothing to do with being Scottish or not.

The problem with what he put forth was that he believes that if you were a Christian and became an Atheist it means you couldn't have been a true Christian. Meaning, he believes that only Christians who always stay Christians were ever true Christians to begin with.

Jr,
I'm familiar with the no true scot fallacy, my point is that it only applies to things that are black and white, where as there can be varying degrees with how strongly you adhere to beliefs/religions.
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Old 08-04-2009, 05:07 PM #35
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If I lost my faith, I doubt I would be as patient. It is not really in my "nature" to put up with people (at all). I tend to be very opinionated and vocal (in person), but Christ's love shows me that I have received compassion (countless times) and I am to countless times show the same to the less fortunate and even the less than "deserving".
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I think natural law tells us to instinctually care for others. We are a social species and it behooves us to treat each other well. That's why people who don't care about other people at all (sociopaths and people with ASPD) are considered psychologically "sick".
Isn't it entirely possible that you both attach different meaning to the same sensation?
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Old 08-04-2009, 05:11 PM #36
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I'm familiar with the no true scot fallacy, my point is that it only applies to things that are black and white, where as there can be varying degrees with how strongly you adhere to beliefs/religions.
Touche. I misused the fallacy. I wasn't aware of it's application to single variables only. Thanks.

Although, I put forth my reason for still calling out the "You weren't a real Christian then" argument.

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Old 08-04-2009, 08:12 PM #37
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Isn't it entirely possible that you both attach different meaning to the same sensation?
Yes of course. My point is that it's natural for us to feel this way.
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Old 08-04-2009, 08:30 PM #38
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Then natural law isn't consistent?
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Old 08-04-2009, 08:31 PM #39
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Isn't it entirely possible that you both attach different meaning to the same sensation?
possibly.

Sensation?
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Old 08-04-2009, 08:46 PM #40
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I would have to disagree with that one. Ok I have a question for you. Suppose a man grew up on a deserted island all by himself. He had no influence by the outside world. Do you think that he would follow today's modern morals? I would have to disagree. I think he would follow his natural instincts of survival.
Humans are social animals. Our "survival instincts" include the need for love and affection and a bond with other humans. A person could not survive on a deserted island from birth without other humans, so your point is moot. Our modern morals are not very different from the morals of the past, but what is socially acceptable behavior has changed.
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Old 08-04-2009, 09:00 PM #41
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Our modern morals are not very different from the morals of the past, but what is socially acceptable behavior has changed.
Is a society's morals and acceptable behavior distinguishable?
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Old 08-04-2009, 09:50 PM #42
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Sensation?
Why you show compassion towards other people.
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