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Old 08-03-2009, 05:28 AM #1
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What "should" next year look like? (Part 2 - Local Scene)


Part 2 of ?? - The New England Tournament Scene

I'm going to chop this topic up into sections, even though I think that may restrict the development of the conversation and the thoughts derived from it. But I'm afraid that if I don't, this can be a very different question to different people, and we'll get circular.

Standard disclosure; If the AXBL cultists go dogmatic on us, I will liberally apply the delete button.

The question this week is simple: What do you think the local (read, New England) tournament scene should look like next year and why?

Which league or leagues should play a part in the development and identity of the sport, how should players be restricted (meaning, largely, the continued banishment of Pro and Semi-Pro players and the restrictions on D1 players) and how have the restrictions thus far used impacted the development of the sport and leagues - as either a positive or negative. How do you see sponsors getting involved with the leagues or with teams?

To be clear, I plan to make an issue of player restrictions in the NEPL this winter, and I plan to politic to get some things changed. So this is something of a first glance at that, but I'll allow the first 10 or 15 posts to go by before I weigh in with my POV.

So, same as before: What do you think will be, what do you think should be, not for your own betterment, but for the betterment of the sport and the teams.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts, comments and words of wisdom.
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:44 AM #2
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I beleive:

1) There will be a new local x-ball league.
a) Rosters will be limited in numbers and roster moves but not in ranking - anyone can play.
b) The league will offer a quality paint at a low cost as well as allow teams to BYOP (No ultra/heavy staining fills)
c) The league will be set-up similar to AXBL - full season/schedule published ahead of time.
d) to prevent sandbagging the league will do two things, first - offer no prizes and second allow anyone to play

2) 7-man will continue the downward spiril it is currently in.
1st NEPL - 35 teams, 2nd NEPL - 30 teams, 3rd NEPL - 22 teams, 4th NEPL ??
1st GPL - 12 teams, 2nd GPL - 9, 3rd GPL - Cancelled

3) Unfortunately 5-man will stall out - not disappear (like 7-man), but I believe we will see little to no growth in 5-man. This should be viewed as troubling as it is the rookie 5-man teams that eventaully turn into Novice teams and then move onto some other format (7-man, x-ball). Without a steady flow of new rookie teams eventually the stream drys up.
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:33 PM #3
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1) Migrate upper divisions to a XBall-esque format (D2/D3). Seems to be the general consensus when I talk with players and including my own opinion that having matches with multiple points is what many prefer. It appears to be the future of the sport with 7man fading out everywhere. Most players aspire to play pro at some point. Not may will make it however if there isnít that light at the end of the tunnel many players wont play. Theyíll play a format that has a legitimate "Pro" division.

2) Support your Beginner and Rookie teams. Setup a 3man rotation. Weekly is probably not feasible with these kids budgets however Iím sure a monthly rotation is. If youíre a field owner throw your sponsored team at them and have them ref and offer pointers. Im sure you can do a good job with only 3 players. Like Dave said, "Without a steady flow of new rookie teams eventually the stream dries up". I donít agree that 5man will stall out. There are some pretty solid teams in 3man this year that will transition well into 5man. 5man is a good transition into XBall or 7man so I don't see it going away whatever route the sport takes.

3) PSP needs to work with regional leagues to develop feeder leagues. So that teams can visualize their progression...realistic or not. So that the Northeast is taking the same steps as the west coast and mid west.

4) Eliminate prizes or work out a sliding scale so that teams with lower ranked players are rewarded and higher ranked are penalized (Jeffs idea, I just like it). We need the competition however I think the majority of the division is in it for the prizes not so much the competition so when they see the Canes on their draw they will get pissed. There are a number of teams that would love to play just for the opportunity however I donít think thatís the majority of teams. Unless there was some kind of relegation you would eliminate more competition than you would bring in. Perhaps the level of competition you would bring in would offset that however I think there would be a dramatic drop in teams. How many Pro/Semi-Pro/D1 players live in New England?
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:59 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox4paintball View Post
I beleive:

1) There will be a new local x-ball league.
a) Rosters will be limited in numbers and roster moves but not in ranking - anyone can play.
b) The league will offer a quality paint at a low cost as well as allow teams to BYOP (No ultra/heavy staining fills)
c) The league will be set-up similar to AXBL - full season/schedule published ahead of time.
d) to prevent sandbagging the league will do two things, first - offer no prizes and second allow anyone to play

.
i like it but i think the league without prizes would be viewed as a rotation type thing and not taken seriously althouth the competition would draw myself to play i think what will decide the turn out is who wants to be the best and play the best for no real reason but that

Last edited by ptk22 : 08-03-2009 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 08-03-2009, 02:40 PM #5
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i like it but i think the league without prizes would be viewed as a rotation type thing and not taken seriously althouth the competition would draw myself to play i think what will decide the turn out is who wants to be the best and play the best for no real reason but that

but with no prizes it would be cheaper and bragging rights correct ? ur fighting to be on top. i think this will bring alot of comptetion to the league
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:13 PM #6
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but with no prizes it would be cheaper and bragging rights correct ? ur fighting to be on top. i think this will bring alot of comptetion to the league
True but paints my concern
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:41 PM #7
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If paint is your concern, then this new league is for you - Quality paint at a reasonable price as well as the option to BYOP.
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:18 PM #8
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True better then what going on know
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:40 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEhItMaN View Post
but with no prizes it would be cheaper and bragging rights correct ? ur fighting to be on top. i think this will bring alot of comptetion to the league
so if there's no prizes there's no entry fee, right?
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:53 PM #10
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whatever dave is talking about i like it a lot
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:10 AM #11
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I feel that the nepl is going to die out in the next year or so. Like Dave posted their numbers have been going down and down after every event.

What will happen if the nepl become extinct?
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Old 08-04-2009, 01:27 AM #12
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Quote:
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I feel that the nepl is going to die out in the next year or so. Like Dave posted their numbers have been going down and down after every event.

What will happen if the nepl become extinct?

then there will be no more 7-man in NE.

sad to see it go. some1 should make a leage for the east coast like wcppl.

or, everyone just plays race to x and race to 2 and 7-man dies completely with nppl(if it fails again).
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Old 08-04-2009, 06:12 AM #13
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Jeffriezz,

No. There is still entry. A series can't live on No Entry and BYOP. How do you pay for the field time, refs and trophies?

There will be a season entry fee - similar to AXBL/MXL.
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Old 08-04-2009, 10:20 AM #14
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Jeffriezz,

No. There is still entry. A series can't live on No Entry and BYOP. How do you pay for the field time, refs and trophies?

There will be a season entry fee - similar to AXBL/MXL.
Tax dollars.....call up Congress Im sure they can pencil in some earmarks for you.
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:18 AM #15
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While I do agree that 7 man is currently on a downward slope, I don't entirely buy into the idea that it is dying, nor that X ball is the future for the NE tourney scene. If it was, why is it we have yet to have even one NEXL event? (Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of the X ball format; I played it in '05 and '06 and didn't care for the aspect of coaching and the penalty system among some other beefs, but another thread, another timeÖ). And while some may argue that 7 man is dying, I don't entirely buy into that, look at USPL DC. I would also argue that while 7 man is shrinking X ball is not growing. I'm thinking that at some point we're going to see a new format in the not too distant future that is some type of combination of 7 man and X ball (or something else?). I mean if you look at the short history of tournament paintball, the format changes or a new format is introduced about every 4 to 5 years. Of course, I could be wrong.

With regards to ranking, I think the lack of higher ranked players competing in the NEPL combined with the lack of interdivisional games has hurt the NEPL and players as a whole. I preferred the days when you had 3 pro teams playing in the NEPL open division. It brought the quality of the competition up, made you play better (at the time INT played open teams) and I think it drew in more teams. Where else would you as a D3 player have the chance at playing and possibly beating a Pro team? In many ways the league, in its current form promotes mediocrity. But thatís simply Anthony giving the players what theyíve asked for.
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Old 08-04-2009, 08:14 PM #16
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... I'm thinking that at some point we're going to see a new format in the not too distant future that is some type of combination of 7 man and X ball (or something else?)....
That sounds alot like Millenium M7...
http://www.millennium-series.com/dow...eries_2008.pdf
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:08 PM #17
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I'd rather see everyone just pick one format and run with it than keep making up new ones. I really like the AXBL format, but I think it was smart of the PSP to keep slowly tweaking their format until it met their needs. Also, the PSP and Millenium Series working together to unify their formats sets a good precedent for everyone else.

The AXBL will keep operating within its niche. The NEPL will still be around. People will still play 3man, 5man and 7man. Hopefully the NEXL will take off as well so we can provide a place for the 5man & 7man guys to start trying out xball (with the potential death of USPL/7man looming).

Personally, what I'd like to see the most is for the economy to bounce back so we can get back to expanding the community instead of just trying to maintain it.
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:29 AM #18
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What will happen, or what should happen?

What should happen is someone should run a limited paint 3-man league and possibly a limited-paint entry-level 5-man division to develop tournament players for 3-5 years from now in an economically challenging climate.

Whether experienced players play XBall or 7-man and what league they play in doesn't matter one bit compared to that.


And, the sooner we toss prizes out of paintball the better off we are.


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Old 08-05-2009, 07:34 AM #19
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Oh boy... I said I'd let 15 posts go by before I jumped in, so now there's some catching up to do.

It seems that the thread is getting deep into particulars without really defining the larger structure that things should take.


On an aside, Dave, you are welcome for the use of my soapbox, but I think THIS thread shoudl be about all of NE, not the NEPL or FoXball. However, people looking for more information on what Dave is talking about can go to http://fox4paintball.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21433.

So, I'll start by responding to some posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seekey View Post
1) Migrate upper divisions to a XBall-esque format (D2/D3).
2) Support your Beginner and Rookie teams.
3) PSP needs to work with regional leagues to develop feeder leagues.
4) Eliminate prizes or work out a sliding scale

So, from this I gather a structure that consists of a Junior league (or division) that plays 3-man or restricted rank 5-man and a "Masters" league (or division) that plays unrestricted rank match-based 5-man. That the upper league/division is played without prizes (and therefore has a reduced fee-strucure. That about right?

I like it. I like the idea of allowing higher levels of players to play, too. I think A LOT of the problems in the NEPL right now, including the drop in teams, can ultimately be traced back to the league's restricting the players allowed to participate. I know this is wha tthe players wanted, but that doesn't mean it was good for them.

The 3rd point I don't like. Well, I like the idea, but I don't like saying "we need someone from the outside to save us." New England can fix its own problems. Let's create something that makes the PSP come to us, instead of asking them to come to us to help create something. I'm sure there are other leagues (WCPPL, AZPPL, CFOA...) who can offer the PSP something better than an opportunity to be a savoir.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seekey View Post
Most players aspire to play pro at some point. Not may will make it however if there isnít that light at the end of the tunnel many players wont play.

If players in NE want to play pro they should:
1. Not have banned the top NE players from playing in the NEPL.
2. Practice better teams. NEH was at Maynard almost every weekend in 2006, 2007 and 2008. Very few teams came to practice us. The Adrenaline Junkies back in 2003 used to go to Canobie to watch the Geese and Hurricanes practice, they'd ref all day just to hopefully get a game or two in against us at the end.
3. Come to clinics. We ran clinics, no one came. We stopped.

There is a difference between wanting something and working for something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post
What should happen is someone should run a limited paint 3-man league and possibly a limited-paint entry-level 5-man division to develop tournament players for 3-5 years from now in an economically challenging climate.

And, the sooner we toss prizes out of paintball the better off we are.

Seems in line with what Seekey said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffriezz View Post
so if there's no prizes there's no entry fee, right?

No cost, no prize tournaments are called practices.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboz View Post
While I do agree that 7 man is currently on a downward slope, I don't entirely buy into the idea that it is dying, nor that X ball is the future for the NE tourney scene.

Do you agree with Seekey that players will play the format that offers the ultimate ranking (pro)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboz View Post
With regards to ranking, I think the lack of higher ranked players competing in the NEPL combined with the lack of interdivisional games has hurt the NEPL and players as a whole. I preferred the days when you had 3 pro teams playing in the NEPL open division. It brought the quality of the competition up, made you play better (at the time INT played open teams) and I think it drew in more teams. Where else would you as a D3 player have the chance at playing and possibly beating a Pro team? In many ways the league, in its current form promotes mediocrity. But thatís simply Anthony giving the players what theyíve asked for.

And that is a big issue. At least I think it is.

It isn't just the noticeable difference in player development, it has also impacted attitude. You walked into those events knowing you were going to get stomped a few times. And even if you won the event, it was the loss to the higher division team that you remembered. It gave teams a little kick in the pants to move up. That advancement was tempered (locally as well as nationally) so that we went from two divisions to 3 divisions to 4 divisions, so teams would be playing in the "money rounds" against like-skilled teams. Even that divisional breakup was helpful, as it gave incentive to people to run multiple squads. Remember Dale Costa's army of Team Machines? Archi had 2 EWM teams. Boston had two teams. Hell, I think I may have had 2 teams for awhile. And so it became Archi's job and Dale's job and Gary Smith's job to train up new players for their own organizations, and the top teams in the league were legit teams, run by good players and good captains. I would LOVE to see NE get back to that, but I doubt we will any time soon.

Personally, I think we need to allow better players back into the league. I think the teams in the NEPL will benefit and I also think the teams outside of the NEPL will benefit. While Seekey said players want to play pro, as a region we provide a huge disincentive to try. Namely, if you try and fail, you are banned from the NEPL for years. Lately I have been inviting locals to practice with the 'Canes. Let's say I start off next year with Blake Rice, Mike Jeffrey and Peanut, all from the Ducks, on the Hurricanes. After the first event, I decide they aren't ready and drop them. Based on current rules, those three can never play in the NEPL together again. Wow. If I pick up Nick from 187 and he plays one event, he can't play in the NEPL for at best two years (and likely closer to three or four).

For me, the answer of what next year should look like is pretty simple. I dont care what format or how many leagues. I think prizes are hurting us now, but can help, so I'm not sold on getting rid of them (but I am sold on changing things so that they provide incentive and not disincentive, and I'm not sure that can be done without another 30 teams per event). What I want to see more than anything else is the opening up of the leagues to higher level players.
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Old 08-05-2009, 08:16 AM #20
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I never liked that the NEPL didn't let pro players participate.
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Old 08-05-2009, 08:23 AM #21
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Yet, year after year, the captains continually vote to keep D1 and higher players out of the league. I know this, because I've been at the last three captain's meetings.

Guys, like any business, if you want change, you need to actually voice your concerns in a way that the league will listen. Go to the captain's meeting, tell them what you want, and it will happen.
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