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Old 08-02-2009, 06:25 PM #64
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Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman View Post
I haven't seen any older men posting that aren't religious. That's kind of interesting. Are there any atheistic/agnostic posters that we know of over 35?
i dont know if hes surpassed 35 but conqueror the admin actually brought a lot of interesting subjects up when this subforum was created
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Old 08-02-2009, 06:28 PM #65
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So...not to start an old argument, but this is your interpretation, or an interpretation you gathered from other individuals (subjective viewpoints) that you are now preaching as what the bible objectively is and says. How am I (knowing this information) supposed to take your word for it? There are probably others with equal or superior educations who have studied Christianity in greater detail than you have that could very well say differently. This is simply a fundamental flaw with religion as it applies sociologically. Unavoidable.
There are others that do say differently. but there are those, many of us in fact, that say the same thing as well.
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Old 08-02-2009, 06:39 PM #66
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There are others that do say differently. but there are those, many of us in fact, that say the same thing as well.
Yup, doesn't really change my point...
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:29 PM #67
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i dont know if hes surpassed 35 but conqueror the admin actually brought a lot of interesting subjects up when this subforum was created
I'm pretty sure Cryptic is older than most of us.
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Old 08-02-2009, 10:48 PM #68
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Yup, doesn't really change my point...
mine either. but that's okay, because I can know what I know, whether you believe I am right or wrong; but you can't know anything. hehehehheheheh (humor, it's a joke, son - a joke!)
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Old 08-02-2009, 11:47 PM #69
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A voice of intelligence I love your answer

His point, although it had some merit (not much), was terribly thought out and poorly worded. You pick that out of everything else in this thread as intelligent simply because you like how it sounds? Wow lol, just wow.
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Old 08-03-2009, 02:00 AM #70
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Warbreak is being ignored because of his graceful ignorance and trollific (yes I just made that up) expertise.

Kinda like that kid asking are we there yet.....just a distant silly annoying echo.

Christianities interpretations are so varied I really do like to see others views on the religion and others religions as well. The funny thing about us is that our differences make us as the human race so great and constantly evolving but it also seems to be our biggest downfall (ex, racism, sexism, holy wars, jihad etc. )

If anyone has seen the movie Equilibrium it kind of makes one wonder if that is the only thing we could hope to do in order to put an end to war...before war puts an end to man . . . .

(If you haven't seen the movie the main story is that society has now become forced by strict law to take medication daily in order to control human emotion after World War 3. Emotional material such as paintings , books (the bible!) , other art media are banned and immediately destroyed. Reminiscent of Fahrenheit 451)
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Old 08-03-2009, 03:15 AM #71
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Warbreak is being ignored because of his graceful ignorance and trollific (yes I just made that up) expertise.

Kinda like that kid asking are we there yet.....just a distant silly annoying echo.

Christianities interpretations are so varied I really do like to see others views on the religion and others religions as well. The funny thing about us is that our differences make us as the human race so great and constantly evolving but it also seems to be our biggest downfall (ex, racism, sexism, holy wars, jihad etc. )

If anyone has seen the movie Equilibrium it kind of makes one wonder if that is the only thing we could hope to do in order to put an end to war...before war puts an end to man . . . .

(If you haven't seen the movie the main story is that society has now become forced by strict law to take medication daily in order to control human emotion after World War 3. Emotional material such as paintings , books (the bible!) , other art media are banned and immediately destroyed. Reminiscent of Fahrenheit 451)
You are just one big awful cliche man.

Warbeak is one of the most logical and reasonable posters on here and has contributed far more to this subforum than you have. You, in fact, are one of those people who takes it backwards, one useless thread at a time. You automatically dismiss our arguments just because they disagree with yours. Do you think a single word you've said on here hasn't been stated virtually verbatim by someone else...in this subforum? And they got ripped for it just like you.

And that "great" post you quoted was also recycled trash that we see on here multiple times a day, hardly a "voice of intelligence."
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Old 08-03-2009, 03:03 PM #72
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This kid has to be a troll just trying to rile you guys up. There's no way he's that stupid.
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Old 08-03-2009, 03:23 PM #73
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Yup, doesn't really change my point...
No it doesn't, but just because there are going to be different interpretations of the something doesn't mean one doesn't continue to seek after the truth. Perspective/perception plays such a huge role in everything in our lives, but the idea with the important things is to, hopefully, remove as much of "us" from what we ingest that we get the purest food possible. Bias will always flavor our plates but those who get closest to the truth are those who can get close as possible to the original recipe...the one that doesn't include what we've added to it ourselves.

ok, I'm hungry now. Time to go eat.
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle: Sapiens is a species. NASCAR is a RACE!!!
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Old 08-03-2009, 05:05 PM #74
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This kid has to be a troll just trying to rile you guys up. There's no way he's that stupid.
Idkn, the majority of the population in Rochester is borderline retarded.
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:29 PM #75
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No it doesn't, but just because there are going to be different interpretations of the something doesn't mean one doesn't continue to seek after the truth. Perspective/perception plays such a huge role in everything in our lives, but the idea with the important things is to, hopefully, remove as much of "us" from what we ingest that we get the purest food possible. Bias will always flavor our plates but those who get closest to the truth are those who can get close as possible to the original recipe...the one that doesn't include what we've added to it ourselves.

ok, I'm hungry now. Time to go eat.

Motives are irrelevant (at least concerning the validity of my argument). You should say "This is what I believe this part of the bible to mean" rather than "This is what this part of the bible means."
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:50 PM #76
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Motives are irrelevant (at least concerning the validity of my argument). You should say "This is what I believe this part of the bible to mean" rather than "This is what this part of the bible means."
We are about to prove my point in this exchange.

Perception my friend......motives are THE most important thing. Let's look at Hitler's motive for using faith v. MLK's. Or Ghandi's v. Early Roman Catholic Clergy. The Bible, in quite a few places, speaks to the 'heart' of man in how it influences everything. What you've asked me to do is dependent on the section of scripture we're talking about. Some parts are "clearer" than others in terms of how easy they are to understand or how open to other interpretations they may be.
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle: Sapiens is a species. NASCAR is a RACE!!!
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:07 AM #77
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Motives are irrelevant (at least concerning the validity of my argument). You should say "This is what I believe this part of the bible to mean" rather than "This is what this part of the bible means."
Motives are relevant as the bible was written by different people and at different times. Just like any (other) work of historical fiction (think Animal Farm) one must understand the sociopolitical climate which the author may be tapping into.

However, I agree that much of the Bible cannot be taken at face value as we cannot be completely sure of the author's motives and intentions.
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:31 PM #78
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We are about to prove my point in this exchange.

Perception my friend......motives are THE most important thing. Let's look at Hitler's motive for using faith v. MLK's. Or Ghandi's v. Early Roman Catholic Clergy. The Bible, in quite a few places, speaks to the 'heart' of man in how it influences everything. What you've asked me to do is dependent on the section of scripture we're talking about. Some parts are "clearer" than others in terms of how easy they are to understand or how open to other interpretations they may be.
The motives of the interpreter (i.e. your motives) are irrelevant insofar as all "interpreters" should have to state that this is what they believe the bible to mean rather than trying to state what it is. Motives will, in fact, change the way in which one deciphers the text - perhaps in a positive way and perhaps in a negative way. In both cases, objectively meaningless human emotions inevitably pull the reader in an interpretive direction. You are patently not allowed to say what is when we are discussing interpretation.

Once you allow interpretation beyond the literal, the bible can mean absolutely anything the interpreter desires. You can't get away from this.
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Old 08-04-2009, 05:07 PM #79
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The motives of the interpreter (i.e. your motives) are irrelevant insofar as all "interpreters" should have to state that this is what they believe the bible to mean rather than trying to state what it is. Motives will, in fact, change the way in which one deciphers the text - perhaps in a positive way and perhaps in a negative way. In both cases, objectively meaningless human emotions inevitably pull the reader in an interpretive direction. You are patently not allowed to say what is when we are discussing interpretation.

Once you allow interpretation beyond the literal, the bible can mean absolutely anything the interpreter desires. You can't get away from this.
Ummm, you just reiterated (somewhat) what I and Crede just said. I'll state again......some parts are open to interpretation and there are very many which are not. People can argue the passages which aren't open to interpretation, but that doesn't make them any less succinct.

Case in point, John 3:16.....not open to interpretation. This passage is very clear and I'm sure there are those who could argue it, but that is generally people trying to reshape the text to suit their needs. Despite that, the point of this section of text is very clear in what it is stating.
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle: Sapiens is a species. NASCAR is a RACE!!!
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Old 08-04-2009, 05:11 PM #80
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Ummm, you just reiterated (somewhat) what I and Crede just said. I'll state again......some parts are open to interpretation and there are very many which are not. People can argue the passages which aren't open to interpretation, but that doesn't make them any less succinct.

Case in point, John 3:16.....not open to interpretation. This passage is very clear and I'm sure there are those who could argue it, but that is generally people trying to reshape the text to suit their needs. Despite that, the point of this section of text is very clear in what it is stating.
sure it is. The question is what is meant by "believes in him", that is, believes he is the Son of God alone, or believes in his teachings, or believes both, or simply follows his example while not sure who he is(as an example, like the disciples clearly did)?

Also, what about the word "belief"? Is that a statement of personal revelation, an idea, or does it necessitate a manifestation of action?
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:47 AM #81
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sure it is. The question is what is meant by "believes in him", that is, believes he is the Son of God alone, or believes in his teachings, or believes both, or simply follows his example while not sure who he is(as an example, like the disciples clearly did)?

Also, what about the word "belief"? Is that a statement of personal revelation, an idea, or does it necessitate a manifestation of action?
Here's a quick copy/pasta with a Hebrew word study.....and I approve this message:
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Some have defined the term as simply an acceptation of the historical facts regarding Christ, along with a willingness to trust him as Savior. This is the view of those who advocate the doctrine of salvation by “faith alone.” But the truth is, there is more to faith than a mental disposition.

The verb “believe” in the Greek New Testament is pisteuo. In addition to the acknowledgment of the historical data, and a trusting disposition, the word also includes the meaning, “to comply,” as Liddell & Scott observe in their Greek Lexicon, (Oxford, 1869, p. 1273); and, as they further point out, it is the opposite of apisteo, which means “to disobey. . . refuse to comply” (p. 175).

Prof. Hermann Cremer noted that “faith” (pistis) both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament “is a bearing towards God and His revelation which recognizes and confides in Him and in it, which not only acknowledges and holds to His word as true, but _practically applies and appropriates it”_ (Biblico-Theological Lexicon of the New Testament, T. & T. Clark, 1962, p. 482; emp. added). W. E. Vine declared that faith involves “a personal surrender” to Christ (Expository Dictionary, Vol. II, p. 71).
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle: Sapiens is a species. NASCAR is a RACE!!!
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Old 08-05-2009, 02:04 AM #82
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Ummm, you just reiterated (somewhat) what I and Crede just said. I'll state again......some parts are open to interpretation and there are very many which are not. People can argue the passages which aren't open to interpretation, but that doesn't make them any less succinct.

Case in point, John 3:16.....not open to interpretation. This passage is very clear and I'm sure there are those who could argue it, but that is generally people trying to reshape the text to suit their needs. Despite that, the point of this section of text is very clear in what it is stating.
Case in point: due to the dispute over the interpretation of much of the bible, you shouldn't say what is most of the time. But you do anyway. That's it.
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