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Old 07-24-2009, 04:18 PM #22
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Originally Posted by RamboPreacher View Post
i know many people, epecially children that do take them seriously! which is part of the point i was making. if these people are "growing up", then why be anti-religious, other than they are just people, and people are people no matter the religion (or lack thereof).
You can't compare adults to children, and by the way, there are completely superfluous rituals that people go through in order to acknowledge "coming of age", which goes hand in hand with surrendering things like a belief in Santa Claus.

As I said (and you didn't address), there's a big difference between publicly acknowledging that you no longer believe in Santa Claus when you're around 8 years old, and publicly renouncing religion. The majority of people in this country expect you to do the former, but will shun you if you do the latter.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:31 PM #23
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Since you just stated that logic doesn't make sense to you, no one will be able to dumb it down enough for you to understand or comprehend it, and it isn't worth the effort or the ensuing flame war because you aren't going to change your mind anyway. Just stick with your god.
thank you for your response
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:36 PM #24
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I really don't understand the thinking of Atheists (not trying to flame)

How does one really believe that we are here from just a huge explosion? Life does not just start to appear. It had to come from somewhere, and the logic just doesn't make much sense to me.

Can a claimed Atheist please explain this to me?

I mean, there mere fact that we can even see is a miracle
The fact that we don't full understand how we came to be does not automatically mean "God did it".

Isn't the existence of a being that can create an entire universe from scratch even more amazing and miraculous than the ability to see. How do you account for that? Who made God?
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:41 PM #25
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Because most people in the world are stupid as ****.


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I agree with this, but on with the topic.

I hate the term atheism and I hate when people identify themselves as atheists because it's necessarily an ambiguous term when they use it. They justify their atheism differently, with different reasons, with different appeals, with different concentrations. Just as when a person who believes in God(s) and/or demigod(s) identify themselves as theists. It's much more clearer when they align themselves with a religion. And I enjoy when atheists just call themselves seculars. Because you can be atheist and religious, but for the most part when someone says atheism they imply a lack or religiosity.

So when we hear atheism, we don't readily know what the person believes and how so. We only know that at his/her conclusion s/he derived that God(s) and/or demigod(s) don't (doesn't) exist.

Then, I think we are being generous when we say that these atheists are like other atheists in that they hate the metaphorical symbolization of spiritual renewal. Instead, accept that atheists are different from each other in many ways and some may be more lenient that others in showing their stance in different manners. Also, by these showmanship (and/or show(wo)manship) they may just want to directly show their disapproval to Christianity in a form that Christians may identify with.

But all in all, these people are morons. Just believe in God, you heathens.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:51 PM #26
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The fact that we don't full understand how we came to be does not automatically mean "God did it".

Isn't the existence of a being that can create an entire universe from scratch even more amazing and miraculous than the ability to see. How do you account for that? Who made God?
Who/what made matter? Does matter just appear out of nowhere?

As a Latter-Day-Saint we believe God has always existed. Ya, it's hard to comprehend but everything isn't logical.

So what I'm saying is you would have to assume that everything in the universe has always been here, which is equally as hard to comprehend as God always existing.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:56 PM #27
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Who/what made matter? Does matter just appear out of nowhere?

As a Latter-Day-Saint we believe God has always existed. Ya, it's hard to comprehend but everything isn't logical.

So what I'm saying is you would have to assume that everything in the universe has always been here, which is equally as hard to comprehend as God always existing.
I don't find either hard to comprehend. But why do you chose to believe one over the other?
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:09 PM #28
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I don't find either hard to comprehend. But why do you chose to believe one over the other?
I have had many experiences in my life where I have actually known God is real.

I'll give an example of a couple months ago..

In the same month both of my grandfathers died. Each one has a pretty remarkable story behind it. Before each of my grandpa's died they actually saw spirits. Both of my grandpa's were very righteous and followed the teachings of God, thus giving me more belief that they were given the opportunity to do so.

My first grandpa who died, a few minutes before, he had a tear roll down his face and he followed something around the room and also my young cousins who are about 1. (as Mormons believe there is a vail from keeping us from remembering or seeing spirts but young children have a thinner vail)

Before my other grandpa died, we were all around him, he was on his bed and sat up, opened his eyes and pointed. My mom said "Ralph can you see the other side?" And he just knoded in response and kept pointing. My mom then asked if he could see any of his family members in the room who had previously died and he knoded his head again.

These aren't examples to where I have actually seen God himself, but seeing my other family members experiencing almost the same thing. If there is Heaven there has to be some sort of God.

I hope that all makes sense, I'm in a hurry to go to a concert
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:14 PM #29
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But all in all, these people are morons. Just believe in God, you heathens.


Or burn in hell for all eternity!
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:15 PM #30
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I have had many experiences in my life where I have actually known God is real.

I'll give an example of a couple months ago..

In the same month both of my grandfathers died. Each one has a pretty remarkable story behind it. Before each of my grandpa's died they actually saw spirits. Both of my grandpa's were very righteous and followed the teachings of God, thus giving me more belief that they were given the opportunity to do so.

My first grandpa who died, a few minutes before, he had a tear roll down his face and he followed something around the room and also my young cousins who are about 1. (as Mormons believe there is a vail from keeping us from remembering or seeing spirts but young children have a thinner vail)

Before my other grandpa died, we were all around him, he was on his bed and sat up, opened his eyes and pointed. My mom said "Ralph can you see the other side?" And he just knoded in response and kept pointing. My mom then asked if he could see any of his family members in the room who had previously died and he knoded his head again.

These aren't examples to where I have actually seen God himself, but seeing my other family members experiencing almost the same thing. If there is Heaven there has to be some sort of God.

I hope that all makes sense, I'm in a hurry to go to a concert
Have fun. Don't get too drunk (that's a joke, get it?)

I have no personal interest or desire to debunk your beliefs, so I won't try. Suffice it to say that there are many rational explanations for what happened in the context of your anecdotes, not the least of which is that your grandfathers saw what they wanted and hoped to see, whether it was really there or not. From my point of view as an atheist (whatever that means), that's fine. Even if it wasn't real, if it gave them comfort in their final moments, then it is good.
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:18 PM #31
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So what I'm saying is you would have to assume that everything in the universe has always been here, which is equally as hard to comprehend as God always existing.
Actually that isn't hard to comprehend at all. Matter has been here long before we have.

Also, I am sorry to hear about your grandparents. I lost my grandfather I was very close to a little over a year ago.
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Old 07-24-2009, 06:55 PM #32
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I guess the question is why do some feel the need to have a ceremony to shed their religious past? Since the events of the past hold no meaning in the present, why is it necessary (or willing to participate in) to do anything at all? The examples of the current day holidays being secularized is a perfect example. No one "officially" secularized these days, life just went on.

nowutimean?

I guess it has personal meaning, but it's odd that you have to place value in a ceremony to show you no longer hold a view that was once of value for you.
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:56 AM #33
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I guess it has personal meaning, but it's odd that you have to place value in a ceremony to show you no longer hold a view that was once of value for you.
Odd? I don't see it as being odd. From their perspective, this is the point when they shed a profound hindrance to their intellectual development and life in general. It's a very important moment to them. People celebrate important moments in their lives. It may be odd to you, but not to them.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:32 AM #34
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no celebration of the shedding of Santa?
no celebration of the shedding of the tooth fairy?
no celebration of the understanding that the flat-earth paradigm really only began in the early 1900's?
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Old 07-25-2009, 11:56 AM #35
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Odd? I don't see it as being odd. From their perspective, this is the point when they shed a profound hindrance to their intellectual development and life in general. It's a very important moment to them. People celebrate important moments in their lives. It may be odd to you, but not to them.
That's some conclusion as to why celebrate this.

Odd to me or not odd to you is not the point I was making (or trying to).
I meant that it is odd that they value a meaningless (because ultimately they no longer believe their previous system) ritual (symbolic gesture of devaluating a belief) when they no longer value another ritual.

The reasons to do it is not so much the issue.

Still IDC if they don't care or do.
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:41 PM #36
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Odd? I don't see it as being odd. From their perspective, this is the point when they shed a profound hindrance to their intellectual development and life in general. It's a very important moment to them. People celebrate important moments in their lives. It may be odd to you, but not to them.
Very well said.
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Old 07-25-2009, 01:24 PM #37
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Actually that isn't hard to comprehend at all. Matter has been here long before we have.

Also, I am sorry to hear about your grandparents. I lost my grandfather I was very close to a little over a year ago.
ya it's hard to loose loved ones
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Old 07-25-2009, 02:43 PM #38
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Who/what made matter? Does matter just appear out of nowhere?

As a Latter-Day-Saint we believe God has always existed. Ya, it's hard to comprehend but everything isn't logical.

So what I'm saying is you would have to assume that everything in the universe has always been here, which is equally as hard to comprehend as God always existing.
Has it ever occured to you that not everyone cares how we got here?

Knowledge of the exact means of this universe coming into existence really has absolutely nothing to do with how you live your life today.

These un-baptisms are probably deeply symbolic to these people. It's really no different then the deep symbolism that some people feel over communion. As warbeak said, the act of shedding your beliefs ......
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Old 07-25-2009, 02:48 PM #39
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Odd? I don't see it as being odd. From their perspective, this is the point when they shed a profound hindrance to their intellectual development and life in general. It's a very important moment to them. People celebrate important moments in their lives. It may be odd to you, but not to them.



So you don't think an Atheist getting de-baptised is a little..um, redundant? It's like when the Athenians held Socrates on trial and charged him with being an Atheist and making up Gods....it makes no sense.
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Old 07-25-2009, 02:51 PM #40
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That's some conclusion as to why celebrate this.

Odd to me or not odd to you is not the point I was making (or trying to).
I meant that it is odd that they value a meaningless (because ultimately they no longer believe their previous system) ritual (symbolic gesture of devaluating a belief) when they no longer value another ritual.

The reasons to do it is not so much the issue.

Still IDC if they don't care or do.
It is valuable to them (I am assuming, trying to put myself in that position) because they are leaving an institution which they feel put a hold on their life. Religious beliefs are a lot stronger than say a belief in santa. This probably was a huge step in their life and a ceremony such as de-baptism is the strongest way (for them) to release themselves from their bonds so to speak. Religious or not, people still desire that abstract form of transcendent experience. Despite most atheists knowing that it is a load of bull**** anyway, they still desire it.
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Old 07-25-2009, 03:24 PM #41
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It is valuable to them (I am assuming, trying to put myself in that position) because they are leaving an institution which they feel put a hold on their life. Religious beliefs are a lot stronger than say a belief in santa. This probably was a huge step in their life and a ceremony such as de-baptism is the strongest way (for them) to release themselves from their bonds so to speak. Religious or not, people still desire that abstract form of transcendent experience. Despite most atheists knowing that it is a load of bull**** anyway, they still desire it.
exactly. It's becoming valuable when they know it has no value. See the oddity.
Now, as to the purpose, no one is really arguing that as the base of it being kinda religious.
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Old 07-26-2009, 03:30 AM #42
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exactly. It's becoming valuable when they know it has no value. See the oddity.
Now, as to the purpose, no one is really arguing that as the base of it being kinda religious.
Well take music for example. It doesn't really have any value. It's just a collection of sounds and such. Nevertheless people attach value to all forms of music for whatever reason they do. Same applies here I think.
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