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Old 07-28-2009, 01:54 PM #22
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Originally Posted by Aaron5604 View Post
No, you're fine...

Basically, (using my own words here) my interpretation was that, "Laplace's demon" acts as an origin (or his words, "intellect") in providing every means necessary in predicting even the slightest/tiniest detail from the past and present in order to perfectly orchestrate the future, creating, "fate" while simultaneously eliminating even the possibility of, "free-will" as we know it.

But really, I think this here is mostly besides the point, or foreplay to the matter, so to speak. Technically, you're correct, since nomological means scientific, NOT divine. Theological determinism more accurately fits

However, I do think some of the "Chaos" arguments against it prove to be at least mildly interesting.



Let me clarify here...

For example:

Even if we can only account for 1 function at a time, whereas quantum mechanics says 2, 3, and 4 are occurring along side one as well, (beyond our perception) how does that really argue the possibility of prediction, despite ones present, or possible knowledge?

I may just be really tired, but I still don't think you understand the point of Laplace's Demon. The whole idea is a thought experiment positing that if a being with such observational capacities existed, it would be able to predict the future. If a being could know the future simply by knowing every aspect of the present, then determinism is true. Seemingly, such a being would be able to predict the future, which is why this is a relatively strong argument in favor of determinism. This is not even closely related to anything theological.

I'm no expert in quantum mechanics, but a major point is that at the quantum level, things that are supposed to be tiny pieces of matter seem to behave like waves of probability. However, whenever we try to actually observe a particle behaving as such, the wave function collapses and the particle behaves like a particle again. Look up the double slit experiment. This has tremendous implications about the nature of objective reality. Anyway, considering the very tiny "matter" we are made up of seems to exist in a realm of indeterminate nature, quantum physics can be looked at as an opposing theory to determinism.


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wut. i don't think anyone here, definitely including myself, knows anything about quantum mechanics. the little i know has already been contradicted in above statements. let me remind you guys that "what the bleep do we know" is a crock of ****.
Yes, what the bleep is a crock of ****, but there is certainly some truth in there.

edit: remember that scene with the water? My friend and I looked up and found special ways you could photograph water molecules to look the way you want them. That scene specifically, was bull****.

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Old 07-28-2009, 02:34 PM #23
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Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman View Post
Yes, what the bleep is a crock of ****, but there is certainly some truth in there.

edit: remember that scene with the water? My friend and I looked up and found special ways you could photograph water molecules to look the way you want them. That scene specifically, was bull****.
I mean yeah, there is some true stuff in there. But it doesn't help you if you can't decipher between the true and false stuff. And if you can, well then there is no reason for you to be watching the movie.

Yeah, the water scene was one of the big things that what the bleep was called out on.
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Old 07-28-2009, 03:07 PM #24
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I may just be really tired, but I still don't think you understand the point of Laplace's Demon. The whole idea is a thought experiment positing that if a being with such observational capacities existed, it would be able to predict the future. If a being could know the future simply by knowing every aspect of the present, then determinism is true. Seemingly, such a being would be able to predict the future, which is why this is a relatively strong argument in favor of determinism. This is not even closely related to anything theological.
Yes, you're just regurgitating my response back over again, in that aspect. Go back and read it

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I'm no expert in quantum mechanics, but a major point is that at the quantum level, things that are supposed to be tiny pieces of matter seem to behave like waves of probability. However, whenever we try to actually observe a particle behaving as such, the wave function collapses and the particle behaves like a particle again. Look up the double slit experiment. This has tremendous implications about the nature of objective reality. Anyway, considering the very tiny "matter" we are made up of seems to exist in a realm of indeterminate nature, quantum physics can be looked at as an opposing theory to determinism.
I already had a little, prior to this post.

Hard matter vs. light -- work in almost complete opposites of one another, basically. Although, (bottom line) if there are still recognizable patterns then I still cease to understand the argument.
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Old 07-28-2009, 03:18 PM #25
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Yes, you're just regurgitating my response back over again, in that aspect. Go back and read it



I already had a little, prior to this post.

Hard matter vs. light -- work in almost complete opposites of one another, basically. Although, (bottom line) if there are still recognizable patterns then I still cease to understand the argument.
Well whatever the hell you're saying, theology shouldn't even be brought up in relation to that thought experiment. You don't seem to be over my head about this so I don't know why I'm having such a hard time understanding your exact point.

There are no recognizable patterns, that's the point. It's not that we have a problem "seeing" the velocity and position of an electron simultaneously, it's that electrons do not have a single velocity and single position. Of course I'm not fully swayed because I believe it's possible we will eventually uncover deterministic patterns in the quantum world. But for the time being, every tool at our disposal is telling us that the very existence of electrons and the like is probabilistic.
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Old 07-28-2009, 04:22 PM #26
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Well whatever the hell you're saying, theology shouldn't even be brought up in relation to that thought experiment. You don't seem to be over my head about this so I don't know why I'm having such a hard time understanding your exact point.
Well, that's the point...

You're taking a strictly scientific (nomological) concept and yet using words derived from theology, such as: 'being' and 'intellect' to help peddle your theory in what can ONLY be mathematical in nature. Obviously, I'm not the only one who has thought that since, "demon" was never its true name to begin with.

It's simply an awkward observation, which was why I even made a statement in the first place about it, hence the word: "fiction" used in the post prior to, as well as contradicting, when having used the word, "bible."

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There are no recognizable patterns, that's the point. It's not that we have a problem "seeing" the velocity and position of an electron simultaneously, it's that electrons do not have a single velocity and single position. Of course I'm not fully swayed because I believe it's possible we will eventually uncover deterministic patterns in the quantum world. But for the time being, every tool at our disposal is telling us that the very existence of electrons and the like is probabilistic.
Ok...

So when an electron is perceived to move in a single straight line at a single velocity, quantum mechanics argues that it's actually moving left, right, diagonal, etc. w/ each additional angle having an assigned velocity as well -- ALL randomly taking place simultaneously?
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:05 PM #27
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Originally Posted by Aaron5604 View Post
Well, that's the point...

You're taking a strictly scientific (nomological) concept and yet using words derived from theology, such as: 'being' and 'intellect' to help peddle your theory in what can ONLY be mathematical in nature. Obviously, I'm not the only one who has thought that since, "demon" was never its true name to begin with.

It's simply an awkward observation, which was why I even made a statement in the first place about it, hence the word: "fiction" used in the post prior to, as well as contradicting, when having used the word, "bible."



Ok...

So when an electron is perceived to move in a single straight line at a single velocity, quantum mechanics argues that it's actually moving left, right, diagonal, etc. w/ each additional angle having an assigned velocity as well -- ALL randomly taking place simultaneously?

No, electrons seemingly have a totally random pattern of movement and it is impossible to predict where they will be. The also don't "exist" unless they are being observed.

This thread has gotten me genuinely interest in quantum physics, I want to take some classes in it now.
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:23 PM #28
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No, electrons seemingly have a totally random pattern of movement and it is impossible to predict where they will be.
Well, (my bad) I should of specified my wording by emphasizing the word, "random" to being 100% unpredictable in every perceivable way -- after having presented my example (or lack ofl) for clarification. But seriously, thanks for the heads-up!

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The also don't "exist" unless they are being observed.
There has to be an explanation for that at some point...
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:30 PM #29
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Well, that's the point...

You're taking a strictly scientific (nomological) concept and yet using words derived from theology, such as: 'being' and 'intellect' to help peddle your theory in what can ONLY be mathematical in nature. Obviously, I'm not the only one who has thought that since, "demon" was never its true name to begin with.

It's simply an awkward observation, which was why I even made a statement in the first place about it, hence the word: "fiction" used in the post prior to, as well as contradicting, when having used the word, "bible."



Ok...

So when an electron is perceived to move in a single straight line at a single velocity, quantum mechanics argues that it's actually moving left, right, diagonal, etc. w/ each additional angle having an assigned velocity as well -- ALL randomly taking place simultaneously?

The word "demon" could be replaced with the word "computer" and the argument would be EXACTLY the same. So your observation is a moot one.

We can't know the position and velocity of an electron at the same time. The double slit experiment shows that electrons fired one at a time at a surface with two slits will result in an interference pattern on the other side (characteristic of a wave). When we tried to measure or observe exactly which slit each electron passed through, the electrons behaved like particles again and we got a normal pattern on the other side. Incredibly strange.

Taken from wikipedia: "quantum mechanics involves the prediction of probabilities in situations where classical physics predicts certainties...the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics predictions cannot be explained in terms of some other deterministic theory, and does not simply reflect our limited knowledge." This reflects the most widely accepted Copenhagen interpretation.

The Many Worlds interpretation, as I explained before, involves a seemingly infinite multiverse in which every possibility occurs and we are simply located in one possible universe. The multiverse as a whole is actually deterministic, but to us - since we are only in one universe - things are probabilistic. This is a way of explaining the wave-function collapse.
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:39 PM #30
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Well, (my bad) I should of specified my wording by emphasizing the word, "random" to being 100% unpredictable in every perceivable way -- after having presented my example (or lack ofl) for clarification. But seriously, thanks for the heads-up!



There has to be an explanation for that at some point...

Disclaimer: Watching the following video may **** your mind.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...nt=f irefox-a
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:00 PM #31
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The obvious solution to the OP's question is that you would not be able to exist as your self should determinism be true. If everything is just a reaction how could you possibly assume the presence of a single and fully determined being.

My argument dose not so much apply to say that our lives are not some how fatalistic, rather that some sort of "Devine influence" Must be considered.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:00 PM #32
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The word "demon" could be replaced with the word "computer" and the argument would be EXACTLY the same. So your observation is a moot one.
Could be, sure... but if you're using wiki as a reference there, I think you're taking the word, "computer" out of context. No computer is suggested there as being the, "demon" itself, but rather the tool one day to maybe understand the dictating origin (whatever that may be?) in full.

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We can't know the position and velocity of an electron at the same time. The double slit experiment shows that electrons fired one at a time at a surface with two slits will result in an interference pattern on the other side (characteristic of a wave). When we tried to measure or observe exactly which slit each electron passed through, the electrons behaved like particles again and we got a normal pattern on the other side. Incredibly strange.

The Many Worlds interpretation, as I explained before, involves a seemingly infinite multiverse in which every possibility occurs and we are simply located in one possible universe. The multiverse as a whole is actually deterministic, but to us - since we are only in one universe - things are probabilistic. This is a way of explaining the wave-function collapse.
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Disclaimer: Watching the following video may **** your mind.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...nt=f irefox-a
Please bear w/ me here

What I'm not fully understanding, is if electrons (tiny pieces of matter) are truly random and fully unpredictable to every extent, but only so in this exact condition -- how does it apply?

Going back to the marble analogy:

When a marble is made whole, it's in fact determined. When chopped up into tiny pieces (electrons) it's basically a giant question mark as to what will occur, especially when trying to measure its course. Realistically, I'm not seeing where electrons by themselves exist on their own, when the purpose of am electron is to form complete matter. So, if matter is still all determined, than what's the real hold up?
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:00 AM #33
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Could be, sure... but if you're using wiki as a reference there, I think you're taking the word, "computer" out of context. No computer is suggested there as being the, "demon" itself, but rather the tool one day to maybe understand the dictating origin (whatever that may be?) in full.


What I'm not fully understanding, is if electrons (tiny pieces of matter) are truly random and fully unpredictable to every extent, but only so in this exact condition -- how does it apply?

Going back to the marble analogy:

When a marble is made whole, it's in fact determined. When chopped up into tiny pieces (electrons) it's basically a giant question mark as to what will occur, especially when trying to measure its course. Realistically, I'm not seeing where electrons by themselves exist on their own, when the purpose of am electron is to form complete matter. So, if matter is still all determined, than what's the real hold up?

Dude you're not making any sense. I don't think you understand either thing we're discussing.
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:24 AM #34
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Dude you're not making any sense. I don't think you understand either thing we're discussing.
The double slit experiment is showing how waves, solid matter, and electrons interact w/ one another. Thing is, if solid matter is comprised of electrons than what difference does it make whether electrons by themselves are unpredictable?

Using that analogy off that cilp:

If you take a marble (as solid matter) and test it you'll get predictable results, period. You chop that marble up into tiny little pieces all the way down to being electrons in their truest state, you then get unpredictable results. Fascinating and mind boggling as it all was, I'm not seeing the connection in how it truly argues determinism; hence my questions earlier.
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:28 AM #35
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The double slit experiment is showing how waves, solid matter, and electrons interact w/ one another. Thing is, if solid matter is comprised of electrons than what difference does it make whether electrons by themselves are unpredictable?

Using that analogy off that cilp:

If you take a marble (as solid matter) and test it you'll get predictable results, period. You chop that marble up into tiny little pieces all the way down to being electrons in their truest state, you then get unpredictable results. Fascinating and mind boggling as it all was, I'm not seeing the connection in how it truly argues determinism; hence my questions earlier.
Just google "quantum mechanics vs. determinism."
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:38 AM #36
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Just google "quantum mechanics vs. determinism."
I have, but I wanted to see what you guys had to say about it...
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:49 AM #37
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So then are you saying that the subatomic world has absolutely no bearing or influence on higher structures?
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:53 AM #38
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lul. a debate.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:03 AM #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron5604 View Post
The double slit experiment is showing how waves, solid matter, and electrons interact w/ one another. Thing is, if solid matter is comprised of electrons than what difference does it make whether electrons by themselves are unpredictable?

Using that analogy off that cilp:

If you take a marble (as solid matter) and test it you'll get predictable results, period. You chop that marble up into tiny little pieces all the way down to being electrons in their truest state, you then get unpredictable results. Fascinating and mind boggling as it all was, I'm not seeing the connection in how it truly argues determinism; hence my questions earlier.
What that video shows is:
Electrons, when not being directly observed, act as waves. However, when they are observed in action, they act as particles(matter). Therefore, somehow the simple act of observation alters their action, which, as far as I've read, is inexplicable.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:43 AM #40
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So then are you saying that the subatomic world has absolutely no bearing or influence on higher structures?
Well, I see it as either one of two possibilities right now. Either large matter cancels out small matter enabling cause and effect as the winner taking precedence over the two.

Or...

Laws of Relativity and Quantum theory work together making life less cut and dry by adding another variable into the mix. Which ever, (in the big picture of it all) I see life as still being predictable after having a better understanding of the specifics.

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What that video shows is:
Electrons, when not being directly observed, act as waves. However, when they are observed in action, they act as particles(matter). Therefore, somehow the simple act of observation alters their action, which, as far as I've read, is inexplicable.
What struck my interest after having seen all that in action, was how these unexplained laws only took shape when in the form of an electron, NOT the full sized marble itself.
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:12 AM #41
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Well, I see it as either one of two possibilities right now. Either large matter cancels out small matter enabling cause and effect as the winner taking precedence over the two.

Or...

Laws of Relativity and Quantum theory work together making life less cut and dry by adding another variable into the mix. Which ever, (in the big picture of it all) I see life as still being predictable after having a better understanding of the specifics.



What struck my interest after having seen all that in action, was how these unexplained laws only took shape when in the form of an electron, NOT the full sized marble itself.

Obviously. These effects are only quantum as far as we can tell. That's the entire deal with quantum physics, Newtonian physics and relativity seem to break down at that level.The point is, if electrons and other subatomic particles really only exist as probability, then outright hard determinism is false.

Also, things in "our world" such the brain are believed to act on a quantum level. So if the brain - which controls all of our thoughts, actions, etc. - acts on a quantum level, then the inner working of the mind are indeterministic.

edit: side note: some believe that the observer wave function-collapse implies that we literally create the world around us.
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Old 07-29-2009, 03:42 PM #42
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Obviously. These effects are only quantum as far as we can tell. That's the entire deal with quantum physics, Newtonian physics and relativity seem to break down at that level.The point is, if electrons and other subatomic particles really only exist as probability, then outright hard determinism is false.
It just doesn't seem to work that way though in real life. Even if the source of an object is unstable in every way under a microscope, (to me) doesn't prove as being unstable as the end product.

For example, you drop a rubber ball it bounces up. Or, you lay out frozen food it defrosts, regardless.

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Also, things in "our world" such the brain are believed to act on a quantum level. So if the brain - which controls all of our thoughts, actions, etc. - acts on a quantum level, then the inner working of the mind are indeterministic.
I noticed the posting of that at the beginning of this thread. As I become more aware of Quantum theory I'll likely investigate that as a possibility.

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edit: side note: some believe that the observer wave function-collapse implies that we literally create the world around us.
I'm not there yet...
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