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Old 07-24-2009, 08:19 AM #1
deadpooll
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Question to teams with that brought tanks to ION

Nelson who runs the Tyrell Lawn Ranger tank posted in the scenario forum for tanks that Skirmish may be doing away with tanks for ION and other big games. I guess he was told that tanks sometimes cause problems on and off the field. Below I have posted his comments.

I am wondering what the rest of the tank crews heard fro Skirmish staff.

Nelson's post:

"Hi everyone, During our pre-inspection of our tank at ION this year. I am assuming all tankers got the same speech from Terry Breslin. I was told that the Skirmish Management doesnt like tanks but currently still do accept a limited amount to the games because of the impact they make. He advised me that tanks were going to be scrutinized and if things went in a negative way then this game could be the last game for tanks at Skirmish. It appears from what I have heard that sometimes tanks and their crews cause problems on and off the field. One of the big things SKirmish Management doesnt like is the fact of a dedicated ref to each tank which causes staffing issues. This causes a shortage of coverage on the field for refs in general. I guess at most fields this could be a problem. If some people were wondering why only 6 tanks (3 Allied - 3 German) were allowed at Skirmish this year this was the behind the scenes reason. Actually the Germans had a fourth tank that was used in a limited way. So I am hoping that the tank crews that were at this game provided or recieved positive feedback to the SKirmish Management, tank refs, and many players. I am not sure about the other tanks. But our tank refs thanked us for listening to them. I am not aware of any incidents regarding tanks this past weekend. SO what I am asking here is for the players and refs provide some kind of positive feedback to Skirmish Management so we can bring our tanks back in future games.

Nelson - Allied Tank #1
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:24 AM #2
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The forth tank for the Germans was a registration mistake. Someone who had not confirmed registering his tank witht the General Murphy, and went ahead and registered. Our penalty for having four tanks was that we could only have 3 on the field at once, and when one got hit and had to leave the field, the one that was waiting to reinsert had to wait 20 or 30 minutes (I can't remember). So we only had 2 tanks on the field most of the time.
As for reffing, I don't see how assigning 6 refs to tanks and their crews is that big of a deal. Considering the amout of refs they had for a game like that.

Personally, I think not allowing tanks would be a huge mistake. They all have a little something to add to the game. Like if two teams are locked in a firefight, a tanks rolls in and gets things moving again so it's not just a boring stailmate.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:48 AM #3
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Which teams did bring tanks? some of them are really cool. One of the americans tanks was made from a truck, It was kick ***! LOL everybody ran from it (:
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:01 AM #4
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i would too
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:24 AM #5
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Tyrell had two tanks that ran Allied. The Lawn Ranger is the most visible since it is painted green. This is run by a team called Cromagnum that usually runs with us. The second tank was plain since it was just built by two brothers that normally run with us. I do not know what team had the tank built off a truck.

As for the Germans, Team Preadtor had the sick looking black and yellow tank, Blackangel had the 6x6 and Miller Stryke Brigade had the black tank with the Germ symbols on it. I do not know who brought the 4th German tank.
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:30 AM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepers Creepers View Post
Which teams did bring tanks? some of them are really cool. One of the americans tanks was made from a truck, It was kick ***! LOL everybody ran from it (:
Quote:
Originally Posted by reigec View Post
i would too
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadpooll View Post
I do not know what team had the tank built off a truck.
You never saw this?

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Old 07-24-2009, 10:40 AM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadpooll View Post
It appears from what I have heard that sometimes tanks and their crews cause problems on and off the field.
I wish somebody could please define the use of the term "problems"......

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadpooll View Post
One of the big things SKirmish Management doesnt like is the fact of a dedicated ref to each tank which causes staffing issues. This causes a shortage of coverage on the field for refs in general. I guess at most fields this could be a problem. If some people were wondering why only 6 tanks (3 Allied - 3 German) were allowed at Skirmish this year this was the behind the scenes reason.
Sounds like a $$$ issue to me......I guess 3500 paying players who all paid entry fees and all bought paint isn't enough in the eyes of some people.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by camokid58 View Post
As for reffing, I don't see how assigning 6 refs to tanks and their crews is that big of a deal. Considering the amout of refs they had for a game like that.
It isn't........there were supposedly 200 refs on site (although I strongly disagree with that number.....) Assigning 6 to cover each of the individual tanks is not that much of a financial impact in the overall big picture. (I'm sure money was still made by Skirmish that weekend)

Here's a novel idea........make each tank crew bring their own tank-walker or ref. This has been done very effectively in the past with JF's tank, and it dosen't cost the owner a dime.........Then assign one or two refs to oversee all of the tanks each side fields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadpooll View Post
SO what I am asking here is for the players and refs provide some kind of positive feedback to Skirmish Management so we can bring our tanks back in future games.

Nelson - Allied Tank #1
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From what our tank operator told me, despite rampant cheating on the part of several of the tanks targets, Buzzkill did not run into any major issues, operated flawlessly, and worked well with the ref that was assigned to it.
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Which teams did bring tanks? some of them are really cool. One of the americans tanks was made from a truck, It was kick ***! LOL everybody ran from it (:
That was Joint Fury's Tank affectionately named "Buzzkill" .......and yes, players do tend to run from it especially when there are 5-6 "gunners" doing their thing on the inside.....
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:48 AM #8
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I saw Joint Fury's tank, I just did not know it was theirs. Still I must say it is one sweet looking killing machine.
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:51 AM #9
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Buzzkill is headed to Top Gun for the Alamo Game right?
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:14 AM #10
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Buzzkill is headed to Top Gun for the Alamo Game right?
I believe so Jezebel, the details are being worked out now......one of the guys is getting married that day, so the crew will be "light". If your interested in our "ride along" program, talk to Brian ("Big Mac") the operator of Buzzkill......I'm sure he'll be able to accomodate you if your interested.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:31 AM #11
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I think it would be more advantageous to skirmish if they had a fleet of their own tanks. This would help alleviate insurance dilemmas. Thats all it is really. When there is no uniform consistant standard for these homemade killing machinies - (EMPHASIS ON NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE), it becomes a pain in the rear end for Terry. All it takes is one guy nailing the gas or going in reverse accidently. Regardless of the indemnity you sign to play - imagine if someone lost their leg to one of these tanks. If you were on the jury, and a 14 year old was run over by one- who would you side with?
Terry should be making all tank owners put a security deposit down of $2k. With all tank operators made very well aware that if any litigation arrives, their security deposit will be utilized for legal correspondances. That will lighten his worries. But rather, skirmish should just have 6 uniform tanks. He can easily get some out of work contractor to fabricate them from 4 wheelers.

The ref thing is a non-issue really. Just because a ref is walking with a tank does not mean they can not call out people.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:44 AM #12
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I actually agree with Bomber for once to a degree. Each tank should bring its own "ref", but also have a field assigned one. I think two on a tank would be better and help eliminate false "kills" from bounced demo. Also maybe even have the team tank refs actually walk with the opfor instead of their own.

Simple math as well is that tanks shoot paint, lots and lots of paint. And the kiddies shoot paint at them. Tanks equal profit!!!
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:07 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFBomber View Post
I believe so Jezebel, the details are being worked out now......one of the guys is getting married that day, so the crew will be "light". If your interested in our "ride along" program, talk to Brian ("Big Mac") the operator of Buzzkill......I'm sure he'll be able to accomodate you if your interested.


"ride along"?
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:19 PM #14
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Originally Posted by NOT SO COOL KIDS View Post
I think it would be more advantageous to skirmish if they had a fleet of their own tanks.
They have a hard time justifying paying for 6 additional refs and you want them to build & maintain their own fleet of tanks.....good luck with that idea

Quote:
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This would help alleviate insurance dilemmas. Thats all it is really. When there is no uniform consistant standard for these homemade killing machinies - (EMPHASIS ON NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE), it becomes a pain in the rear end for Terry.
Most fields require the tank owner to carry an insurance policy on the tank naming and indemnifying the field for any possible issue, insurance policies that are PAID FOR, not by the fields, but by the tank's individual owners.

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All it takes is one guy nailing the gas or going in reverse accidently.
Thus the reason for most field's "25 foot" rule, which is a rule that states that if a tank is in motion, all surrounding players must keep 25 feet away from it or be eliminated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOT SO COOL KIDS View Post
Regardless of the indemnity you sign to play - imagine if someone lost their leg to one of these tanks. If you were on the jury, and a 14 year old was run over by one- who would you side with?
Imagine if somebody was playing paintball, and got shot in the eye??? Or Imagine if somebody was getting an air fill, and the tank blew up? Wait a minute........... , are you an insurance agent?

Quote:
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Terry should be making all tank owners put a security deposit down of $2k. With all tank operators made very well aware that if any litigation arrives, their security deposit will be utilized for legal correspondances.
OK, this is where you really lost me......... with all due respect, JUST what is $2000 supposed to pay for if an accident were to occur???? This is why we have things like "insurance" and "deductables" (Okay, I take it back, maybe your not an insurance agent.....lol)

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That will lighten his worries.
I'm no insurance agent either, but I think there is more to his "worries" than that.......

Quote:
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But rather, skirmish should just have 6 uniform tanks. He can easily get some out of work contractor to fabricate them from 4 wheelers.
Regardless of who is going to purchase said "4 wheelers", who is going to pay the insurance, maintenance, & upkeep on said vehicles????? From previous arguments, it was stated that Skirmish has a hard time justifying (IE: PAYING) for a ref to escort a tank, and now you are kindly asking them to build and maintain a fleet of them?.......okay

And who would operate them????? You want to talk about a legal quagmire, here's one for you......Imagine if a 3rd party paintballer(IE:Customer), operating a Skirmish owned tank built on a 4 wheeler, hurt or killed someone unintentionally? (That's an insurance/legal nightmare of gothic proportions!!!)

Quote:
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The ref thing is a non-issue really. Just because a ref is walking with a tank does not mean they can not call out people.
Agreed......But its an issue to Skirmish who has to pay for said refs and apparently has a difficult time justifying it.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:28 PM #15
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Screw buzzkill that thing lit me up you can see me in the one video hauling *** away from it
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:40 PM #16
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Screw buzzkill that thing lit me up you can see me in the one video hauling *** away from it
And another victim joins the ranks......lol
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:46 PM #17
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And another victim joins the ranks......lol
haha i was behind a hyper tube and i pop up to see buzzkill on the other side...
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:04 PM #18
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:06 PM #19
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A few of my friends had problems with tanks, all of varying degrees. One was the refs. My friend who was the Allied armor officer said every time a tank ref was needed, he had to run from the Allied base to scenario command to get one. Another friend had a LAW, and once had to shoot a tank 6 times before the ref noticed a hit (amongst a crowd of Allied players yelling "He got it, he hit the tank!" Simple solution would be honor system, but even that doesn't work. I heard there was a German tank that committed a lot a general jackassery, was told it couldn't play for the rest of the game, and then inserted two more times after that.

My proposition, although I haven't been involved in the tank game:
-Better communication between command staffs and game staffs, make sure they're both on the same page about what tanks to allow. Don't allow any tank crews who don't have a clean record.
-Assign a player ref to tanks, possibly from the opposing side. Again, someone who has a clean record, plays honorably, and won't smudge a ruling to help their own side. Tank drivers as well, call themselves hit when they know they're hit.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:21 PM #20
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having watched all the German tanks rotate in and out, I dont think any "jackassery" happened.
In a game this size there is always going to be some issues and some people who are unhappy with something.
I personally think the weekend went rather well.
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:46 PM #21
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Our tank also got the we dont need you and we don't want you here speech. We were told that tanks are nothing but a pain in the butt.
For a team that spends thousands of dollars building these machines, thousands of dollars towing them across the country to distant fields and spend thousands of dollars in paint to feed these things this is very VERY dissapointing to hear.
Dedicating one ref is too costly for the field? Think of the exciting atmosphere tanks create when they roll up on the front lines, think of the thousands and thousands of dollars in paint 3500 players dump on enemy tanks when they see them on the field, think of the thousands of dollars in paint the tanks throw themselves.
I think it is downright stupid to do away with the tanks altogether.
If there's a problem with a certain tank at the game "jackassery" if you will, the solution is simple, throw them off the field and do not allow them back.
But for a tank crew like ours, with a reputation for playing honestly and safely, it is unfair to be punished for the acts of other tank crews who may have created problems in the past.
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