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Old 07-21-2009, 10:45 AM #43
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Originally Posted by cuttlefish32 View Post
Well, first of all, being a grammer nazi, I'M not the one condemning these people to hell, it's God.
Also, just because hell is not mentioned in the OT does not meant is doesn't exist (unless that's your belief). But wait! The OT does mention hell.
In Isaiah 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit.
The NT mentions hell multiple times the only example I can think of off the top of my head is seperating the sheep from the goats. Also, it seems punishment in the OT was being smitten by God or in the name of God (fire on Sodom, flood, prophets of Baal) while in the NT, punishment=hell.
Firstly, sheol is not the Christian understanding of hell in any sense. Go look up the definition; it simply means grave. Do you think it is a coincidence that the "wages of sin is death" or that "as one man's sin brought death to all, so in Christ all will be made alive." The curse God was Adam was that he die, not go to an eternal hell. Why would the punishment somehow change between the two testaments? But even still all go to sheol today until the return of Christ when the dead souls in sheol are resurrected and judged according to their works.

EDIT: Also, a few translations I have seen render Day Star as king of Babylon and Pit as deep places of the dead or the like.
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:51 AM #44
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Originally Posted by cuttlefish32 View Post
Exactly, if God loved us, I don't see why or even how he could send us to hell for all eternity.
He loves us enough to not make us His mindless slaves with no free will.

In other words, you walk into the elevator, push the button that says hell, and ignore God telling you that it's the wrong floor.

He's not going to force your hand or His own will upon you. He can, but He won't since He gave us free will.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:11 PM #45
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Originally Posted by cuttlefish32 View Post
...I'M not the one condemning these people to hell, it's God...
Actually it's themselves. The condition of being separated from God after one dies is simply a continuation of that condition while the person was alive.

Salvation is the reconciliation of that broken relationship. One changes from being separated from God to being with God. That relationship also continues after death.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:32 PM #46
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He loves us enough to not make us His mindless slaves with no free will.
And thereby send most of the human population to hell for all eternity? Yeah, that's a whole lotta love.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:35 PM #47
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Originally Posted by ἔρως-φιλία-ἀγάπη View Post
And thereby send most of the human population to hell for all eternity? Yeah, that's a whole lotta love.
the alternatives being:

A) no free will, mindless slaves

B) sending a bunch of people where they don't want to be, ie. with God.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:41 PM #48
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the alternatives being:

A) no free will, mindless slaves

B) sending a bunch of people where they don't want to be, ie. with God.
A) Even when it's obvious that in terms of who God saves, we have no free will anyway.

B) And you assume they wouldn't want to be there why? I don't think that just because anyone thinks that there isn't enough empirical evidence to believe in God means they wouldn't want to be with him for all eternity, especially if the only other alternative is eternal torment and punishment (how can one even be "punished" for eternity? A punishment has a point where the punisher says that the iniquity is forgiven.)

But who, in seeing the full nature of God at the time when all things cease to exist, would deny him? It is for this reason that it is written all tongues will praise his name.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:43 PM #49
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because we can make him love/hate anything we want him to. thats the positives of an imaginary friend.
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:03 PM #50
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A) Even when it's obvious that in terms of who God saves, we have no free will anyway.

B) And you assume they wouldn't want to be there why? I don't think that just because anyone thinks that there isn't enough empirical evidence to believe in God means they wouldn't want to be with him for all eternity, especially if the only other alternative is eternal torment and punishment (how can one even be "punished" for eternity? A punishment has a point where the punisher says that the iniquity is forgiven.)

But who, in seeing the full nature of God at the time when all things cease to exist, would deny him? It is for this reason that it is written all tongues will praise his name.
A) obviously, your idea of slavation is different than mine. I don't see any indication that God's saving grace and free will are incompatible.

B) again, if God truly was here on earth, performing miracles, and people still kille dhim, there are obviously some people who will not want to be with God.

explain where in the NT or OT that the torment in hell is ever expressed in a literal manner. To me, it's obvious that they are using a metaphor for the worst physical pain they can think of as the pain of being seperated from god for eternity, since to them being with God is eternally bliss.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:29 PM #51
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Originally Posted by ἔρως-φιλία-ἀγάπη View Post
Firstly, sheol is not the Christian understanding of hell in any sense. Go look up the definition; it simply means grave. Do you think it is a coincidence that the "wages of sin is death" or that "as one man's sin brought death to all, so in Christ all will be made alive." The curse God was Adam was that he die, not go to an eternal hell. Why would the punishment somehow change between the two testaments? But even still all go to sheol today until the return of Christ when the dead souls in sheol are resurrected and judged according to their works.

EDIT: Also, a few translations I have seen render Day Star as king of Babylon and Pit as deep places of the dead or the like.
Sorry, I was in a hurry, here is the King James Version, using hell.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:32 PM #52
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Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
explain where in the NT or OT that the torment in hell is ever expressed in a literal manner. To me, it's obvious that they are using a metaphor for the worst physical pain they can think of as the pain of being seperated from god for eternity, since to them being with God is eternally bliss.
Exactly, perhaps the concept of eternal pain is a metaphor for not being with God. So people sent to hell are just those who do not believe in God and yet won't be physically tortured for all eternity.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:34 PM #53
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Actually it's themselves. The condition of being separated from God after one dies is simply a continuation of that condition while the person was alive.

Salvation is the reconciliation of that broken relationship. One changes from being separated from God to being with God. That relationship also continues after death.
And yet, if God is all knowing, he knows your future even before you're born. Which means he knows whether or not you go to hell before you even get a say in the matter. He could choose to not let you be born, yet he does not. So since God knows your future and allows you to live, he has condemned you to hell.
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Old 07-21-2009, 07:18 PM #54
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Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
explain where in the NT or OT that the torment in hell is ever expressed in a literal manner. To me, it's obvious that they are using a metaphor for the worst physical pain they can think of as the pain of being seperated from god for eternity, since to them being with God is eternally bliss.
Okay, so if it's apparently "bliss" to those, how would that be punishment, or rather, how would punishing someone for their sins by letting them live without God forever be punishment if they want to live without God?

As for salvation, I think it is very clear any man does not choose by his own "will" to be saved. "God shows compassion to who he will show compassion."

What about the "no one seeks God" passage?

We don't accept Jesus as Savior, he accepts us as people who need salvation.
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Sorry, I was in a hurry, here is the King James Version, using hell.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
lolwut? Are you serious? Just because the KJV uses hell instead of sheol does not change the word used in the original language. King James was an idiot and rendered words as hell that weren't even close to any definition of Christian hell.
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Old 07-21-2009, 07:24 PM #55
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ya but wasn't it your choice to sin? It's up to you whether or not you go to Hell. If he didn't do that to anyone, there would really be no purpose to life.

I'm LDS, we believe that you came here for a test, to achieve heavenly glory, and if you do bad here.. that's your fault. Otherwise you could kill someone without any consequences.
Why "test" us? If he created us, couldn't he have created us without the urges to do the things he arbitrarily decided are "sin"?
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