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Old 07-20-2009, 05:41 AM #22
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Originally Posted by cuttlefish32 View Post
It seems in a lot of religions (Christinaity espiecally) people take the idea that God loves them as understood fact. My question is, why does God love us? Simply because we are his creations?

edit: I realize the typo in the title but I can't change it.
because we are ****ing awesome.

we made robots that suck because they cant hump and reproduce, also we made the sham wow, and the great wall of china.

we are like an ant farm for god except ant farms suck *** and we have wars and racism and influenza and the renesance and junk.

we are gods version of TV only no commercials, no censorship, and all the sex and violence you can jerk off to.

or maybe god just thinks I'm great and the rest of you are kindof *****s.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:51 AM #23
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Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
I am pretty sure that doesn't work given biblical texts. just because he said it, and its aesthetically pleasing does not mean it is right.
actually, I know many Christians who would agree with that, though it doesn't mean they are "not going to hell".

Think of it this way:

A man who professes faith in Jesus, spends tons of time at Church, knows the Bible etc etc, and when he passes a homeless person on the street begging for money, he doesn't even "see" him, just walks on by.

Is God smiling on him in that moment because he fulfills all these things on some checklist of correct beliefs?

Now say I walk by, who doesn't believe in Jesus who doesn't really know the Bible. Maybe I've been studying it and think there are some decent instructions for making the world better in it, but there's a lot I don't get and I certainly don't have faith. I see this poor woman asking for money and I say to myself "yeah, I can spare a few bucks". I don't give her money, but I am on my way to meet someone at starbucks so I invite her to join me, and I buy her a sandwich and a cup of coffee.

Now I don't have a checklist of "right beliefs" filled out. I don't have faith in the right things. But, if God is as he is described in the Bible, do I think he's pretty pleased with his creation in that moment?

I'd have to say based on what's written that he is. There isn't a whole lot about judgment, at least in Jesus's message(we could get into the old testament, but I don't know it well enough and that was a lot about a specific peoples with a specific purpose). It was only mentioned in the sense that people will not determine your judgment but God will, so don't try to take his place.

Is it faith that warrants our place in Heaven, yes according to the Bible. However, what does "faith in Jesus" mean? I think we have to take it in context of Matthew 25:31-46.

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31"But when (Y)the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then (Z)He will sit on His glorious throne.

32"All the nations will be (AA)gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, (AB)as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

33and He will put the sheep (AC)on His right, and the goats (AD)on the left.

34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, (AE)inherit the kingdom prepared for you (AF)from the foundation of the world.

35'For (AG)I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; (AH)I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

36(AI)naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you (AJ)visited Me; (AK)I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?

38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?

39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

40"(AL)The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, (AM)to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

41"Then He will also say to those on His left, '(AN)Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the (AO)eternal fire which has been prepared for (AP)the devil and his angels;

42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'

45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

46"These will go away into (AQ)eternal punishment, but the righteous into (AR)eternal life."
if we take this at face value, "Faith in Jesus" isn't some profession of belief or certain phrase that gets you into Heaven. to have redeeming faith means to act lovingly towards your fellow man, fulfilling needs as you see them without question or condition.

One of the most oft repeated phrases throughout the gospels is "As Jesus walked along, he saw ..." If in order to be in Heaven we are supposed to model our lives after Jesus as best we are able, walking around blind to the needs of others doesn't seem to mesh with what we know.
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:28 AM #24
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That's all good and I agree with most of it. But, let's say you (going hypothetical) get to heaven and are standing before God (Christ) and He says "You have been told about me your whole life, you have followed my teachings and have taught them to others. But not as who I am, you have denied my divinity, rejected my sacrifice and worse lead others down the same path. They worship man and give me no mind because of your teaching. They deny me and reject me placing their own judgment above mine and live their lives in no fear of me. And now you stand before me unable to deny my existence and who I am."

You - "Ah **** man, my bad." He might agree.

hsilman's sig - I've heard Liar, Lunatic or Lord applied to Jesus. If you don't call Him Lord, then He's one of the others. Being one of the others you would seriously follow what He teaches?
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:08 AM #25
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Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
actually, I know many Christians who would agree with that, though it doesn't mean they are "not going to hell".

Think of it this way:

A man who professes faith in Jesus, spends tons of time at Church, knows the Bible etc etc, and when he passes a homeless person on the street begging for money, he doesn't even "see" him, just walks on by.

Is God smiling on him in that moment because he fulfills all these things on some checklist of correct beliefs?

Now say I walk by, who doesn't believe in Jesus who doesn't really know the Bible. Maybe I've been studying it and think there are some decent instructions for making the world better in it, but there's a lot I don't get and I certainly don't have faith. I see this poor woman asking for money and I say to myself "yeah, I can spare a few bucks". I don't give her money, but I am on my way to meet someone at starbucks so I invite her to join me, and I buy her a sandwich and a cup of coffee.

Now I don't have a checklist of "right beliefs" filled out. I don't have faith in the right things. But, if God is as he is described in the Bible, do I think he's pretty pleased with his creation in that moment?

I'd have to say based on what's written that he is. There isn't a whole lot about judgment, at least in Jesus's message(we could get into the old testament, but I don't know it well enough and that was a lot about a specific peoples with a specific purpose). It was only mentioned in the sense that people will not determine your judgment but God will, so don't try to take his place.

Is it faith that warrants our place in Heaven, yes according to the Bible. However, what does "faith in Jesus" mean? I think we have to take it in context of Matthew 25:31-46.



if we take this at face value, "Faith in Jesus" isn't some profession of belief or certain phrase that gets you into Heaven. to have redeeming faith means to act lovingly towards your fellow man, fulfilling needs as you see them without question or condition.

One of the most oft repeated phrases throughout the gospels is "As Jesus walked along, he saw ..." If in order to be in Heaven we are supposed to model our lives after Jesus as best we are able, walking around blind to the needs of others doesn't seem to mesh with what we know.
I am not sure what to say to this.

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James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Oh yeah, I forgot that works. I guess there is a reason why there is only one religion

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Being one of the others you would seriously follow what He teaches?
A lunatic saying 2+2=4 does not make the statement invalid.
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:09 AM #26
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That's all good and I agree with most of it. But, let's say you (going hypothetical) get to heaven and are standing before God (Christ) and He says "You have been told about me your whole life, you have followed my teachings and have taught them to others. But not as who I am, you have denied my divinity, rejected my sacrifice and worse lead others down the same path. They worship man and give me no mind because of your teaching. They deny me and reject me placing their own judgment above mine and live their lives in no fear of me. And now you stand before me unable to deny my existence and who I am."

You - "Ah **** man, my bad." He might agree.

hsilman's sig - I've heard Liar, Lunatic or Lord applied to Jesus. If you don't call Him Lord, then He's one of the others. Being one of the others you would seriously follow what He teaches?
well, first of all, that wouldn't happen because you don't get judged like that when you die. Bt that's not what you're asking about and I'm just jabbing to quibble about scripture

In all honesty, fear and trembling aside, I would just shrug. Mostly because I would never teach the way he said, I never once questioned the divinity of Jesus for them. I say how I feel and if that influences others, so be it. But if again the Bible is true, then it is up to them to find their own relationship, and my lack of one is no excuse. I would never evangelize or deny anything unless they asked me, and even if I did, I tell people its up to them to draw their own conclusions.

It's up to God to reach me because without personal revelation, faith is folly and misplaced. I can truly say I'm open to the experience but lacking it faith is not only wrong but impossible. People base their beliefs not on what they know as fact, but what they experience as true.

It's tough to talk about things like this because most Christians get defensive and say I'm talking about a works-based faith and how that's wrong yadda yadda. And I'm not saying that the disctinction doesn't matter or that your faith is unimportant. But I will say that faith IS works. they are synonymous.

You have to your last dying breath to have faith, so obviously if you are on your deathbed you don't have a chance to help others. But if you talk a big talk about jesus when you are 20, then go home and do nothing, you won't be a part of the eternal reward.

edit: woops, forgot to address the Lewis trilemma. basically, what Laureate said is part of it, but before you even get to it, there's the problem of believing that Jesus said and did what's in the Bible in the first place, among other things.
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:16 AM #27
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Fair nuff.

*Edit - How many threads does cuttlefish got going?

To OP. Why does God love us? - We above all creation were created in His image to be in relationship with Him. We were created to be loved by Him.

Have you ever seen a parent who treated their child/children as though they were a burden? I don't know about you but I have and I always ask myself "Why have kids if this is the way you feel?" This does not represent God. God is loving and giving that parent is self centered and selfish. Can the parent learn to love? Yes. Does God need to learn?
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:33 AM #28
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:27 AM #29
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:08 PM #30
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Originally Posted by markcheb View Post
But not as who I am, you have denied my divinity, rejected my sacrifice and worse lead others down the same path. They worship man and give me no mind because of your teaching. They deny me and reject me placing their own judgment above mine and live their lives in no fear of me. And now you stand before me unable to deny my existence and who I am.
Honestly, that's a lot of "me's". He must be one jealous, approval and attention seeking God.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:32 PM #31
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As opposed to men who believe they know more than God?
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:32 PM #32
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As opposed to men who believe they know more than God?
Men aren't omnipotent, all powerful beings or the one we ought to aspire to be like (in the case of Jesus).

Men have flaws. God supposedly doesn't.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:41 PM #33
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First it was a hypothetical monologue.

But yes exactly, if men are flawed and we don't hold ourselves accountable to God who is supposed to not be, then how can we trust the teachings of man?
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:43 PM #34
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First it was a hypothetical monologue.

But yes exactly, if men are flawed and we don't hold ourselves accountable to God who is supposed to not be, then how can we trust the teachings of man?
This is one of the problems that many atheists and agnostics bring up. Men are inherently flawed. How can we trust the teachings of men and/or the interpretations made by them? Unless one believes that the Bible was written by God, it is almost inconceivable that a mortal man could correctly scribe 100% of what an immortal and perfect deity says to him.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:46 PM #35
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That would be where faith comes in. But I would ask how could man be "inherently flawed" if there is no "ideal" in the real sense to compare too?
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:52 PM #36
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Exactly, if God loved us, I don't see why or even how he could send us to hell for all eternity.
"Love keeps no record of wrongs."
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He sends those who he doesn't love to hell. You may think it's not fair, but it's what the bible teaches.

Surely people can ask "If God hates sin, why did he let Adam do it?"

God isn't the author of sin, but he allows it to happen. Adam had the ability to sin, but God told him not to. God gave Adam freedom to do anything but eat of the tree. Adam ate of the tree, and Romans 3:11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, 18"There is no fear of God before their eyes

All men are born under sin, so God has the right to hate us. Why does God love us? I have no idea, but we don't deserve to be loved, yet he gave Jesus to pay the price for the sins of his people.
Jesus died for the sins of all people. If there are none who are righteous, then the entire human race is going to hell, because none of them fit the standard for going to heaven. This is why Jesus died. He is the only sacrifice. Without Jesus, all are going to hell. With Jesus, it is exactly the opposite way.
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actually, I know many Christians who would agree with that, though it doesn't mean they are "not going to hell".

Think of it this way:

A man who professes faith in Jesus, spends tons of time at Church, knows the Bible etc etc, and when he passes a homeless person on the street begging for money, he doesn't even "see" him, just walks on by.

Is God smiling on him in that moment because he fulfills all these things on some checklist of correct beliefs?

Now say I walk by, who doesn't believe in Jesus who doesn't really know the Bible. Maybe I've been studying it and think there are some decent instructions for making the world better in it, but there's a lot I don't get and I certainly don't have faith. I see this poor woman asking for money and I say to myself "yeah, I can spare a few bucks". I don't give her money, but I am on my way to meet someone at starbucks so I invite her to join me, and I buy her a sandwich and a cup of coffee.

Now I don't have a checklist of "right beliefs" filled out. I don't have faith in the right things. But, if God is as he is described in the Bible, do I think he's pretty pleased with his creation in that moment?

I'd have to say based on what's written that he is. There isn't a whole lot about judgment, at least in Jesus's message(we could get into the old testament, but I don't know it well enough and that was a lot about a specific peoples with a specific purpose). It was only mentioned in the sense that people will not determine your judgment but God will, so don't try to take his place.

Is it faith that warrants our place in Heaven, yes according to the Bible. However, what does "faith in Jesus" mean? I think we have to take it in context of Matthew 25:31-46.



if we take this at face value, "Faith in Jesus" isn't some profession of belief or certain phrase that gets you into Heaven. to have redeeming faith means to act lovingly towards your fellow man, fulfilling needs as you see them without question or condition.

One of the most oft repeated phrases throughout the gospels is "As Jesus walked along, he saw ..." If in order to be in Heaven we are supposed to model our lives after Jesus as best we are able, walking around blind to the needs of others doesn't seem to mesh with what we know.
Read James 2.
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:56 PM #37
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Fair nuff.

*Edit - How many threads does cuttlefish got going?

To OP. Why does God love us? - We above all creation were created in His image to be in relationship with Him. We were created to be loved by Him.

Have you ever seen a parent who treated their child/children as though they were a burden? I don't know about you but I have and I always ask myself "Why have kids if this is the way you feel?" This does not represent God. God is loving and giving that parent is self centered and selfish. Can the parent learn to love? Yes. Does God need to learn?
Just 2 threads, but the topics are different
Yes, if you see God as a father to all of mankind, than he may love us all. But that would mean he wouldn't send any of us to hell. Unless God believed in the philosophy of "tough love" He couldn't severly punish any human being.
Or there's always the argument that God does not limit himself to the bounds of logic. He can choose whether or not he loves his creation, no idea of parenthood can stop that.
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:59 PM #38
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That would be where faith comes in. But I would ask how could man be "inherently flawed" if there is no "ideal" in the real sense to compare too?
Another place where faith comes in is where people believe mankind is inherently flawed because of Adam and Eve. But of course you can choose to have faith in some things and ignore others. Selective religion
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:23 PM #39
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Another place where faith comes in is where people believe mankind is inherently flawed because of Adam and Eve. But of course you can choose to have faith in some things and ignore others. Selective religion
Actually Crede must have continued his thought and edited his post while I was responding. My post was in response to the first half of his.

I do believe man is inherently flawed due to original sin, and yes this is part of my faith. I don't think I'm being selective in the least. My question is: If you don't believe in original sin, then how do you justify the statement of "man being inherently flawed?" I can say in my faith "man is flawed because of sin." But if you don't believe in sin, where is the flaw? Environmental weakness' maybe, informational limitations sure. But why are these and others flaws? What is the standard?
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:26 PM #40
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Just 2 threads, but the topics are different
Yes, if you see God as a father to all of mankind, than he may love us all. But that would mean he wouldn't send any of us to hell. Unless God believed in the philosophy of "tough love" He couldn't severly punish any human being.
Or there's always the argument that God does not limit himself to the bounds of logic. He can choose whether or not he loves his creation, no idea of parenthood can stop that.
Even in the notion of "tough love," it wouldn't make any sense for God to send anyone to hell for eternity. Don't you think that after say, oh, 100,000 years of torture God might say, "He has received his punishment for his sins. He is now free to go." Do you see God of one who has no mercy or grace? Or do you see Jesus' sacrifice as pointless? Because Jesus did not die for the few, but the many.

Why then, do you condemn souls to an eternity of physical pain and separation from God, which is worse than any punishment?

You did not see Isaiah punished for his sins for an eternity in "hell" when he meets God face to face. His lips are touched with a coal and all his sins are forgiven.

There aren't any mentionings of "hell" in the whole old testament.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:43 PM #41
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Actually Crede must have continued his thought and edited his post while I was responding. My post was in response to the first half of his.

I do believe man is inherently flawed due to original sin, and yes this is part of my faith. I don't think I'm being selective in the least. My question is: If you don't believe in original sin, then how do you justify the statement of "man being inherently flawed?" I can say in my faith "man is flawed because of sin." But if you don't believe in sin, where is the flaw? Environmental weakness' maybe, informational limitations sure. But why are these and others flaws? What is the standard?
Why can't the working concepts of math be regarded as a, 'point of origin' to mans inherent flaws; because it's to broad of a response?
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Old 07-21-2009, 10:22 AM #42
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Even in the notion of "tough love," it wouldn't make any sense for God to send anyone to hell for eternity. Don't you think that after say, oh, 100,000 years of torture God might say, "He has received his punishment for his sins. He is now free to go." Do you see God of one who has no mercy or grace? Or do you see Jesus' sacrifice as pointless? Because Jesus did not die for the few, but the many.

Why then, do you condemn souls to an eternity of physical pain and separation from God, which is worse than any punishment?

You did not see Isaiah punished for his sins for an eternity in "hell" when he meets God face to face. His lips are touched with a coal and all his sins are forgiven.

There aren't any mentionings of "hell" in the whole old testament.
Well, first of all, being a grammer nazi, I'M not the one condemning these people to hell, it's God.
Also, just because hell is not mentioned in the OT does not meant is doesn't exist (unless that's your belief). But wait! The OT does mention hell.
In Isaiah 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit.
The NT mentions hell multiple times the only example I can think of off the top of my head is seperating the sheep from the goats. Also, it seems punishment in the OT was being smitten by God or in the name of God (fire on Sodom, flood, prophets of Baal) while in the NT, punishment=hell.
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