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Old 07-21-2009, 11:11 AM #22
osckey123
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The way I have seen it throughout my years as a Christian is that to be God fearing does not mean to be afraid of God. It is similar to the relationship you may have with your parents. You love them and they love you, but what happens when you disobey is that you begin to fear their punishment. You fear the consequences of your actions.

I feel like I can apply this same concept to God. I love God, and I know God loves me. He loves me so much he shows me grace and mercy everyday and in turn I am not going to take advantage of His love for me.To be God fearing is to know that God is with you always and He's going to know when you sin against Him. If you are God fearing, in my opinion, you are going to not take advantage of His love because you know He will bring you back down to reality that you can't get away with sinful behavior and an unrepentent (sp?) heart.

That's the way I have best understood it though I also understand that my explanation wasn't the best. Consult a local pastor if you still have problems grasping the concept.
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:51 PM #23
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:27 PM #24
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The way I have seen it throughout my years as a Christian is that to be God fearing does not mean to be afraid of God. It is similar to the relationship you may have with your parents. You love them and they love you, but what happens when you disobey is that you begin to fear their punishment. You fear the consequences of your actions.
So then the only reason you do good actions is because or fear of God's punishment?
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:29 PM #25
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So then the only reason you do good actions is because or fear of God's punishment?
...or because of fear of a lack of reward? Yes, that's how humans operate.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:33 PM #26
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So then the only reason you do good actions is because or fear of God's punishment?
Given my experience, god-fearingness is one of the main reasons why I stopped being a Christian. When I went to church I did not see people who loved god, I saw people who feared god. I would sit there while people sang hymns about how great god is and I just had this strong gut feeling that if there was a god, he would not want this. You know, a lot of Christians say the meaning of life is to "have a relationship with god", but there is just so much that lacks from that. If this is true, what would be the harm in it being an inherent fact? Why can't everyone know this? Why are we then punished if we don't take a part in this even after there is no logic or reason pointing to it?

You can't love something if you are punished if you don't.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:42 PM #27
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...or because of fear of a lack of reward? Yes, that's how humans operate.
But religion is based upon an idea bigger than Earth. Religion, or at least God, isn't bound down by how humans commonly operate. Can't people do good things because it benefits others?

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Given my experience, god-fearingness is one of the main reasons why I stopped being a Christian. When I went to church I did not see people who loved god, I saw people who feared god. I would sit there while people sang hymns about how great god is and I just had this strong gut feeling that if there was a god, he would not want this. You know, a lot of Christians say the meaning of life is to "have a relationship with god", but there is just so much that lacks from that. If this is true, what would be the harm in it being an inherent fact? Why can't everyone know this? Why are we then punished if we don't take a part in this even after there is no logic or reason pointing to it?
Ironically, I have somewhat the oppisite opinon because of a personal expierence. In church, I was asked the question of why people should do good things. I replied so they don't get into hell. I was then told that was wrong, people should not do good deeds (or even just accept religion) to simply get into heaven. They should do them because it is the right thing to do. A relationship with God is not so much talking to him or praying to him, it is following what he "says" (in my opinon). Even if God does not say it himself, it is what people have attributed to him. The Christian God is one of compassion and forgiveness, and being compassionate and forgiving is what being a Christian is about.

edit: Even if God does not exist, the values do not lose merit.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:53 PM #28
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Ironically, I have somewhat the oppisite opinon because of a personal expierence. In church, I was asked the question of why people should do good things. I replied so they don't get into hell.

1. I was then told that was wrong, people should not do good deeds (or even just accept religion) to simply get into heaven. They should do them because it is the right thing to do.

2.A relationship with God is not so much talking to him or praying to him, it is following what he "says" (in my opinon). Even if God does not say it himself, it is what people have attributed to him. The Christian God is one of compassion and forgiveness, and being compassionate and forgiving is what being a Christian is about.

edit: Even if God does not exist, the values do not lose merit.
1. Yeah, except it is hard to do a good deed with that type of mentality when knowing you will go to hell if you are not good. Why did god even mention heaven and hell in the first place then if it poses all these problems?

2. You are not forgiving if you punish someone for an eternity. Second, that still does not change the fact that you don't know which religion is the right one. And if you are going to say they are all right, well then what about all the people, like myself, who refuse to be religious because it is completely illogical (and didn't god give us logic too?).

You still have yet to answer:
There is no proof for any religion. There are many religions and it is impossible to tell which one is right. What is the point of there being a right religion if you can not find it?
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Old 07-21-2009, 05:38 PM #29
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So then the only reason you do good actions is because or fear of God's punishment?
Not the ONLY reason, but definitely a reason, yes...

Quite frankly, I'd say His, "fear" established upon us -- resembles that of an insurance policy (just in case, kind of a deal) more so than anything, similar to authority figures as we know today, IE: law enforcement. Therefore, meaning the sole purpose here is to protect first, and prosecute second. In which case, that's what I believe most Christians "love" about Him; the idea that, "fear" doesn't necessarily pertain, but strictly to those who purposely (knowingly) abolish His wishes for the better.

And, where I get this, is because I know that Christianity is essentially derived from love, not hate. Therefore, like everything in religion there will always be a side chosen; again, very similar to law being very black and white
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Old 07-21-2009, 05:46 PM #30
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1. Yeah, except it is hard to do a good deed with that type of mentality when knowing you will go to hell if you are not good. Why did god even mention heaven and hell in the first place then if it poses all these problems?

2. You are not forgiving if you punish someone for an eternity. Second, that still does not change the fact that you don't know which religion is the right one. And if you are going to say they are all right, well then what about all the people, like myself, who refuse to be religious because it is completely illogical (and didn't god give us logic too?).

You still have yet to answer:
There is no proof for any religion. There are many religions and it is impossible to tell which one is right. What is the point of there being a right religion if you can not find it?
here's my question in retort:

why is Hell punishment? It is phrased that way in language, but really, is not being in the presence of a God who's influence you rejected for a whole lifetime a punishment?
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Old 07-21-2009, 05:51 PM #31
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here's my question in retort:

why is Hell punishment? It is phrased that way in language, but really, is not being in the presence of a God who's influence you rejected for a whole lifetime a punishment?
reword question please
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:08 PM #32
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here's my question in retort:

why is Hell punishment? It is phrased that way in language, but really, is not being in the presence of a God who's influence you rejected for a whole lifetime a punishment?
Yet we live in His grace and that grace is removed so yes in that sense it would be a punishment.
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:26 PM #33
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here's my question in retort:

why is Hell punishment? It is phrased that way in language, but really, is not being in the presence of a God who's influence you rejected for a whole lifetime a punishment?
Eh, I guess I'll chime in as well...

If the sole purpose of Hell is to inflict massive pain, then yes it's a clearly a punishment for rejecting Him in life. Upon being born, we're said to be given a choice. And, whether that life sequence is in fact determined to be painful or not, doesn't directly classify those life intentions from God as Hellish, but strictly as a means to trial for conditioning.
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Old 07-21-2009, 07:02 PM #34
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1. Yeah, except it is hard to do a good deed with that type of mentality when knowing you will go to hell if you are not good. Why did god even mention heaven and hell in the first place then if it poses all these problems?

2. You are not forgiving if you punish someone for an eternity. Second, that still does not change the fact that you don't know which religion is the right one. And if you are going to say they are all right, well then what about all the people, like myself, who refuse to be religious because it is completely illogical (and didn't god give us logic too?).

3. You still have yet to answer:
There is no proof for any religion. There are many religions and it is impossible to tell which one is right. What is the point of there being a right religion if you can not find it?
1. I'm not sure why God mentioned it. Perhaps so a sense of good and evil could be established.

2. As for people who refuse to be religious, that's perfectly fine. But if you reject the good values like compassion and foregiveness that so many religions praise, than that would be "bad" (for lack of a better word).

3. The point of a religion is to give purpose in some people's lives. Some people already have a sense of purpose and don't need religion. That's perfectly fine.
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Old 07-21-2009, 07:27 PM #35
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1. I'm not sure why God mentioned it. Perhaps so a sense of good and evil could be established.

2. As for people who refuse to be religious, that's perfectly. But if you rejest the good values like compassion and foregiveness that so many religions praise, than that would be "bad" (for lack of a better word).

3. The point of a religion is to give purpose in some people's lives. Some people already have a sense of purpose and don't need religion. That's perfectly fine.
1. How does mentioning heaven and hell make the definitions of good and evil more clear? Aren't the ten commandments pretty clear?

2. So you are saying according the Bible, it is perfectly fine for people to not be religious?

3. The point of religion is to give purpose to someone's life? Then why is there a heaven and hell? Are you saying that religion is not actually true but for the sake of people's overwhelming sense of lack-of-purpose they can pretend it is all true to make themselves feel better? Is that what you are saying the function of religion is?
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Old 07-21-2009, 08:10 PM #36
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1. How does mentioning heaven and hell make the definitions of good and evil more clear? Aren't the ten commandments pretty clear?

2. So you are saying according the Bible, it is perfectly fine for people to not be religious?

3. The point of religion is to give purpose to someone's life? Then why is there a heaven and hell? Are you saying that religion is not actually true but for the sake of people's overwhelming sense of lack-of-purpose they can pretend it is all true to make themselves feel better? Is that what you are saying the function of religion is?
1. Well hell is the consequence for evil and heaven for good.

2. Not so much the Bible but in my own opinon

3. Well, maybe. If all else fails, religion is a placebo, it works for those who believe.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:28 AM #37
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Okay, ignore everything that has been said. You asked, "is it possible to love and fear God." I think what you should ask is, "is it possible to love god knowing that you will be punished if you do not." And I would say the answer is no, how can you love something if you don't have a choice?
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:05 PM #38
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Okay, ignore everything that has been said. You asked, "is it possible to love and fear God." I think what you should ask is, "is it possible to love god knowing that you will be punished if you do not." And I would say the answer is no, how can you love something if you don't have a choice?
for many, orthopraxy is found through orthodoxy but occasionally orthodoxy is found through orthopraxy.
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:10 PM #39
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for many, orthopraxy is found through orthodoxy but occasionally orthodoxy is found through orthopraxy.
Could you reword this please? (for the sake of my 4th grade reading comprehension)
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:46 PM #40
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no, I like words like orthopraxy.

Can an atheist get insurance against acts of god?
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:55 PM #41
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Okay, ignore everything that has been said. You asked, "is it possible to love and fear God." I think what you should ask is, "is it possible to love god knowing that you will be punished if you do not." And I would say the answer is no, how can you love something if you don't have a choice?
Did you love your Dad? If you did something you knew would make him angry, were you afraid to face him? If he punished you (deservedly) for what you did, did you no longer love him? Our relationship with God is not unlike that.

As to your reworded question...did your dad ever punish you for not loving him? I hope not. Neither does God. You shouldn't think of hell as a punishment inflicted by God for your lack of faith or love. Hell is the state of being eternally separated from God. If that is our state when we die, it simply continues in death.

We are responsible for our broken relationship with God. He freely offers reconciliation and restoration. If we refuse, that relationship remains broken. In human terms, if you have a falling out with your father/son and never reconcile before you/he dies, that relationship can no longer be mended.
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Old 07-22-2009, 04:19 PM #42
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Could you reword this please? (for the sake of my 4th grade reading comprehension)
Thanks to wikipedia, I know that Hsilman is saying that good actions can be a result of religion but it also works vice versa.
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