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Old 07-12-2009, 12:32 PM #1
Boom Master
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: St. Louis MO, USA, EARTH
LTTC Walking Tank Info

I was sending an e mail about my walking tank design and fabrication and decided just to post a copy here. So I will be adding to it and editing it a LOT. If they want to make it a sticky, fine.

Pictures of the LTTC in action are posted at:
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...9#post62617429

EVERYBODY do us all a favor and don't reply or ask questions in this thread. Help me make it a HOW To Do Thread without a lot is distracting comments and questions for other people to read.

Go here to make comments, ask questions, have discussions, etc.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...0#post60392170

Use Quotes to reference the part of this thread you are refering to.

That way, we can exchange info and ideas there instead of here. OK?
Be my editors and let me know what sections are unclear, confusing or just need clarification or more info.

My first backpack based walker was the ATST-1. Inspired by Star Wars ATST Imperial Walker. The white turret with chicken legs that Chewie captured in the Teddy Bear Battle.

This one was initially the ATST-2.0 but with the upgrade of the autoloading cannon, it turned out to be so dangerous to other armor that I decided to call it the LTTC-1.1 (Little Tank That Can) - 1.1 Just for grins....

They make fun of my tank a LOT at the beginning of the game but I get the last laugh by the end of the game. The ATST-1 and the LTTC has never been defeated armor vs armor meaning no tank has gone home with more kills on my tank that I have on theirs. Here are the best pics I have right now. Does not have the Mech Warrior Chicken Legs attached.







My favorite comment about these Pics so far: "Nice Sox." LOL!

The empty tank shell without any armorment and the chicken legs weighs an amazingly light 15 pounds. Looks heavier doesn't it. Add all the armorment, air and ammo it is battle ready at 65 pounds. About 40 pounds of paintball gear goes inside it. If you are just a RPG player with a marker, you are hauling about 35 pounds of gear anyway.

That is the SECRET to a successful walking tank. WEIGHT. If it is heavy, it stops being fun to play in REAL QUICK. Why you don't see many walking tanks. I hope to change that with this thread.

The first tank was a backpack with a frame built around it onto which I mounted my super light armor plate and netting. Battle ready it came in around 80 pounds. Bit of a workout.

The LTTC is a prototype for a monobody construction technique where the armor plate IS the structural material. It worked eliminating the weight of the framing and dropping a huge amount of weight. Some of which I replaced with that autoloading cannon.

That clear material is polycarbonate twin wall sheeting. They use it for pool enclosures, green houses, etc. It will withstand hail and point blank 300 fps paintballs. Very stiff, tough, and a 4x8 sheet weighs only 7.25 pounds. Also about $80 a sheet. Ouch! but not really. I used maybe 3 sheets counting the chicken legs. That is a real CHEAP tank body. You can see that it is hollow like cardboard in some of the pics below.

Here we go.............. Remember this was originally an e mail
He felt he had to do some redesign because all he had to transport was a car.

"It can be smaller and shorter." Certainly small enough to go onto a car top carrier but I would build a box to protect it from those 70 mph winds - In the front to break the wind anyway. It rides fully assembled in my pickup with some tie down straps. I originally planned to be able to fold it up for transport. My figuring wasn't right and had to settle with just two bulky pieces that fit inside each other somewhat. The bottom and MOST of the top of the turret is open so I slide that in face down on the front netting. (Cannon and marker removed during transport) Then slide the top of the body into it with the ALICE pack face down. Air tanks and chicken legs also removed for transport. Pretty much take up 5 foot of length 30" wide. So some assembly is required to go on or in a vehicle smaller than a compact pickup or trailer.

I am going to rebuild/upgrade the turret and drop about a foot off the overall height. Believe it or not, I have top clearance issues with overhanging branches and bunker doorways. It will also decrease the target area vs Nerf Rockets from the front, rear, and sides a bit. Then there is a chance it might go into the mini van upright. That space is currently where I store my paintpods full and empty. See pics attached. Link if you can't

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...mmoCarrier.jpg



http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...ic_001_002.jpg


I decided to make a similar single magazine going down the inside of each side of the new turret. Pull the full pods out at my hip and throw the empties back in the top of it. It will be a bit wider but I needed to do that anyway cause my upgraded chicken legs will need the clearance. That should shave a couple of pounds off it which will be replaced by the new legs. You can see the idea from the back view below.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...ngAwayView.jpg



The slanting sides will be double walled to make a pod magazine going down each side. Right over the CG of the tank so it won't change the balance as I use up that half case of paint or more.

The turret with the netting comes OFF the body that the legs are attached to. Otherwise, it will not fit into the mini van. In the back view above you can see the piece of wood glued and epoxied at the bottom of the turret. Used those C shaped PVC pipeclamps on both parts of the body with a piece of pipe to join them. That is where the turret pivots up from to enter and exit the ALICE harness (very tight fit- sardine). It is also designed to break away or snap off if I take a forward header. And it snaps on and off for transport as well.

I can be shorter front to back if you install a breech loader instead of my autoloader. In the picture below you can see where I added onto the front to accommodate the autoloader's extra internal length during the upgrade. About 8 inches.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...deViewBest.jpg



You can see the mocked up chicken legs with the hockey goalie shin guards that attach them to your legs. The new ones will be the thickness of a 2x4.

Below is my best pic of the body.




You can see the ALICE frame. Behind and mounted on it, is the guts of the cannon Breech or Autoloader. Air Chamber, Main Valve, Trigger Valve battery box and the required pressure gauges, pop off valve etc. There is about 6 extra inches front to back clearance left over in that box. The ALICE is has two mounts on each side. Only the bottom one in this picture. All four are lynch pins so I can pop it out if I need too. If I just pop the top two, the ALICE pace will rotate down and give me quick access to all the cannon guts for any field repairs or battery changes. I have no idea how many shots I get out of those two 9 volts. 50+ is my most use in one game. I change them out for each game and use them in my REVY until they go flat. I plan to find out and mount a spare set in that water proof battery box with a throw switch either on the box or located where I can reach it during play.

See the side panel to protect my sides. That was not substantial enough to mount the chicken legs too. It is now 1/4 plywood. The pivot point of the chicken legs need to be at YOUR hip. The respective lengths of the two sections are a bit critical. I can measure them for you but it really depends on your leg length. I'm 6'0" and wear a 32" inseam. So we would have to compare how close you are to my size and adjust accordingly. Getting the leg geometry and movement to LOOK good is a bit tricky. Those legs in the mockup above are single thickness mock ups. You might be able to see all the holes I drilled in them to adjust each sections length and attachments.

You can see the air tank box sticking out the back. It is OVERSIZED too. You may need the extra length going to the back because the air tanks are a counterbalance weight for the turret and that autoloader in the front. It is absolutely CRITICAL that the center of gravity is AT or behind your hips when battle ready. If it is nose heavy, your shoulders take the entire weight and HURT terribly in less than 30 minutes. So keep in mind that it is easier to cut OFF that extra length than add it on.

More on Part 2

Last edited by Boom Master : 10-15-2009 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 07-12-2009, 01:13 PM #2
Boom Master
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Part 2

Found out I exceeded the 10,000 character limit already. Will have to split this up as we go...

Part 2

The Center of Gravity is critical to the cosmetics of the tank as well. If it is tail heavy, you walk leaning forward so the whole thing tilts down while you are walking and looks goofy. Similarly if it is nose heavy, you compensate by leaning backwards and the whole body tilts up.
It doesn't hurt to be able to adjust the CG a bit. I used blocks of foam to position the air tanks forwards and backward to tweak the CG. Once I did that I glued them in and put on a Velcro cinch strap to hold the tanks in place. They do slide around even with the foam..

I knew I was going to get the huge 513 ci tank so I made it long enough to accommodate it plus a couple of inches. It has about 6 inches of clearance inside with the tanks lying in the bottom. After I installed the 513, it was actually a bit tail heavy. I store spare Nerfs, drinking water, smoke canisters, hand held flame thrower, and any extra weight I want to haul back there. Access is through that rear panel. Slides up and off except for the bottom 3 inches. Needed that fixed for structural strength. Made me wonder if I could install the tanks vertically behind the air cannon hardware and still be balanced. That would take over a foot off the overall length front to back.

Again, the CG HAS to be over or behind your hips. Do a lot of mock ups with your hardware and leave a margin of error you can fix.

You can use screws to attach the polycarbonate to the 90 profiles. Make sections you just screw on for a mockup. You can't PLAY with it unless you glue it but for mockups they will hold. So have your cannon, pods, air tanks etc. ready to go so you can check the CG and clearances as you build. You can weigh the hardware and do some math too to figure out where the need to be located. I could weigh the individual section of my turret and body again plus my cannon hardware and give you a good idea how much they weigh. The autoloader mechanism/magazine adds 6 pounds over the standard breechloader cannon. I just made sure I had plenty of room and fit the cannon inside there. I should have mounted all the cannon hardware, air tanks, etc first, measured and then built accordingly. It would be quite a bit smaller (and a bit lighter) if I had. It WAS a prototype for the monobody concept plus all the fabrication techniques I had to learn.
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Old 07-13-2009, 08:51 AM #3
Boom Master
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Part 3

This is already getting out of hand and chopped up. Bear with me guys and gals. Going to make an outline to follow. Another copy from another post.

I have solved that weight problem. That tank shell is an amazing 15 pounds without the paintball gear.

This is what it is made out of. It is what you HAVE to make a backpack based walker out of unless you can find something Lighter and just as durable. Polycarbonate Twin Wall. They use it for pool enclosures, green house roofs, etc. It will withstand hail. It also takes point blank 300 fps paintballs on the same spot without cracking or splitting. A 4x8 sheet of the 1/4 inch weighs 7.25 pounds...

Now players will tell you chloroplast plastic cardboard is cheaper and holds up. It is the stuff those yard signs are made out of. In the two tanks I have seen that used it, You could split, crack, or even penetrate it with a paintball. By the time you replace it ONCE, you could have bought this polycarbonate twin wall. But Not all chloroplast is made equal. Some guys SWEAR it works and holds up. So simply go by your local sign maker shop, get a sample out of the trash bin, put it on a frame and shoot it with some paintballs. Ask for samples from the manufacturers and distributors. Even for the polycarbonate and TEST it for durability before you are out a lot of money.

Here is a grainy pic of the material and how I used hot glue to reinforce areas I install bolts and screw through. It is like cardboard or chloroplast and hollow on the inside. Very tough rigid stuff that is extremely light.



Here is the attachment to the Alice Pack Frame. Probably the highest stress points of the whole project especally if I should fall down. They held up when I tripped and took a header. The netting section of the turret is a break away design. It pivots up and will snap off if necessary. That is what happen when I fell. Snapped it back on and continued to play. Kind of a LEGO tank but if something HAS to give, you should design it to give at a point you can fix without requiring some repairs. Used snap on C shaped PVC pipe hangers at the pivot point mount. You can see one on the top of the ALICE frame pic with all the labeling print on it.



My first tank had a frame with the twin wall mounted onto it. This tank is a Monobody concept. The "armor" polycarbonate IS the structural material. No frame other than the ALICE backpack frame. Afraid I would have a 'Dixie Cup' tank but I have fallen down in it and beat it up considerably and it is still doing fine up to the point a guy fired a 260 fps weighted Nerf at it. Broke the frame that supported the netting. A few other fatique crack problems that were reinforced with fiberglass but for all practical purposes, the mono body concept works and is substantial to hold up to the abuse I will give it.

Add the autoloading cannon, marker, paint, two air tanks, and it is battle ready at 65 pounds. That includes a 20 pound 513 ci x 3000 psi HPA tank to run that autoloading cannon. It would be a LOT lighter without that monster air tank and the autoloading cannon... (About 20 pounds lighter with a breech loader and 88 x 3000 ci air supply) But I would rather be dangerous and haul that weight. Just turned 60 and don't work out. I just tell everyone that I am Superman's Uncle because it LOOKS a lot heavier than it is.

It is backpack based. That concept eliminated all the fabrication, expense, and weight of a frame, wheels, etc. Plus it can jump sideways and use cover from behind trees, buildings, and can go through doorways. MOBILITY and small target size makes it very competitive against other motorized armor. Given the same range and accuracy for Nerf cannons, smaller is better when it comes to tank engagements. I can engage a pickup sized tank at 60 yard and have the same percentage chance of a kill that they would have at 30 yard. I can also get off 6 shots before they fire their second unless less they have an autoloader too.With that 1 RPS autoloading cannon, it just ain't a fair fight, tank vs. tank.

Last edited by Boom Master : 07-13-2009 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:39 AM #4
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its on my to do list. i have most of the materials but no time lately.
thanks for the info and the pics, nice job.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:06 AM #5
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Our stuff

started a little chat with Boom there and started sharing info. Figured I'd see about posting a pic of our "bad boy" [i]Wolf[i]. It is loosly based off a miniture game our group plays. The vehicle is call a Sentinel. it is a small recon/scout mech. we are going to be using our mech is a similar fashion. however tech. issues t DoN III prevented a full field test. The only test that was completed was an armor test.
Wolf goes don't the main road (bad dog!!) and turn the corner on about 100 guys (no fooling). Wolf took nearly 3000 round from woodsballer, speedballers, and scenarior players. only 3 actuall hit hm through the armor. For what is a light armored vehicl I'll take that as a successful test!
PS side armor was flip-flopped.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:01 AM #6
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I think I will do something simular to your thigh and pelvic armor plate in the LTTC.
So the shingles made out of that polycarbonate with them zip tied together should work pretty well.

They do everything to try and slow me down. Problem has been when I fall down (usually going forwards) it can't interfere with the fall or getting back up.

It is actually capable of allowing me to crawl in this thing on my hands and knees. Just haven't needed to use that tactic yet..

The canopy with the netting is designed to swing UP at the rear. Helps getting in and out. If the fall is too hard, the whole canopy pops OFF rather than break something. That HAS been battle tested and worked as design. Also makes it more compact to transport in the mini van. If I get down on my hands and knees, that canopy will swing up and slide along the ground as I crawl.

Yes, walking tanks enjoy the 'cockroach effect' when walking into an objective full of enemy players that forgot to bring along a RPG Player. They run every direction and into each other scrambling and looking for a hole to crawl into. Just like cockroaches.

Also enjoy the "magic leaf blower" effect. When they see you coming at about 50 yards, they scatter like leaves.

And when they DON'T, you KNOW they have some anti armor in their midst and you'd better be careful..

Last edited by Boom Master : 09-29-2009 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 09-30-2009, 06:37 PM #7
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nice work. i dont know about the design. a nerf t the nuts would ruin your day
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Old 10-06-2009, 02:18 PM #8
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I like the mech suit. I really want to make a few cookie cutter walking tanks for recon and quick threat displacement. The problem I'm gonna have is with the fields allowing Mech type suits. they look at the original design for the PUG and say it's that or nothing.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:14 AM #9
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Yes, I'm familiar with that backward thinking. That design is decades OLD and you don't see very many of them simply because they are poorly designed, heavy, and no fun to play in because of the weight. I played against one that was built by a scenario team and no one on the team wanted to play in it because it was so heavy. One guy fielded it for a couple of hours and parked it for the rest of the weekend.

They used to object that they are 'portable bunkers' that are moved around but they can't say THAT anymore for my ATST or your Mech Warrior design.

Isn't a REAL military tank a 'portable bunker' with wheels by definition?

Ditto a motorized paintball tank?

They used to object that walking tanks don't look like REAL tanks but all you have to do is point out that 95% of the motorized tanks don't look anymore like a REAL tank than yours does. They both have markers and cannons and that is the end of any simularity to any real armor.

The players look at yours and say, "What a neat MECH WARRIOR".
The players look at mine and say, "That looks like a Star Wars ATST."

They are recognized by the players as ARMOR even though fictional.

Nobody looks at a motorized paintball tank and says, That looks like an Abrams, Sherman, or anything else. It looks like a paintball tank... Non paintball players look just say, "What is that?"

There are a few exceptional tanks that DO look like some model of military armor. Lets give them due credit here.

When I present these facts to a field owner, they have no counter arguement other than it is his field and that is the way it is.

I finnish my conversation stating I will have no choice but to spend my paintball money at some other field.
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Old 10-16-2009, 06:56 AM #10
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As far as fields go in regards to mechs its still up to them to allow it. What can only help is when making a mech, the safer the design the better. Also I can't express how important it is to have as little blind spots as possible in the mech. If you can't see you'll have no fun lots of pain or the ref will simply say no way.
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:11 AM #11
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In my humble opinion there are only a few legitimate reason not to allow a mech style tank
1 not in the realm of the scenario's theme. Not going to have mechs in a WWII battle
2 the mech is not safe both to the player using it and to those around it
3 the field owner is a bum and got "this is my field" syndrome. Nothing you can do about this one except as stated before, take your money elsewhere.
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Old 11-02-2009, 03:47 AM #12
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new leg idea in the works

Ok for the more Mech and less Gundum look I got an idea. The easiest way to get your mech to have a more Mechwarrior/Battletech mech is to have a revered knee leg. However the normal human leg is terrible uncooperative for this design (can you say orthopedic surgeon). I think I am on to something and will be able to get that kind of look. I am in research stages now but looks promising. Will update as I work more details out..
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Old 11-02-2009, 07:57 AM #13
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Yes, you need chicken legs so it LOOKs like a Mech or Star Wars ATST.
Here is a pic in battle with the chicken legs on it.



My first mockup in play was a heavy duty RCA console TV box with a 'window' cut in it. Cardboard chickens legs duck taped to my ankles.

When I walked onto the field they kid says, "That looks like a Star Wars ATST" instead of 'what are you doing letting a senile old man play paintball with a box on his head...'

That was when I knew it had to have the 'chicken' legs..

Believe it or not, they were the hardest thing to design and build. The geometry and movement to get them to look right was very difficult. Wound up building mock ups and then several mods in the original. They appear to be very specific to your height, leg length, and the length of your normal stride.

You want the pivot point of the hip AT the pivot point of YOUR hip.

The length of your stride needs to me measured at its max length. So include you trotting, running, and walking fast stride. The 'knee' joint will move up and down in a partial arc that matches that distance. If the length of the thigh is too short you get a LOT of arc. Enough to trip you when it reaches straight up. Too long and you get very little change in arc or movement and it doesn't LOOK RIGHT when you move.

I originally put the leg attachment at MY knee. Used hocky goalie shin guards to attach to my legs. The length of my knee movement was too short and the legs moved very little. You see in the pic above, I moved the attachment point down to my ankles to get more movement.

The length of the leg between the knee and ankle is a bit critical. You want it to hold the thigh horizontal when you are just standing with both feet together so you get about the same arc of motion going up as when you are going down.

If I was going to do it over again, I would get a couple of 1x3 and drill holes about one inch apart at the knee joint and keep changing the relative thigh and lower leg length until it moved right.

Last edited by Boom Master : 11-02-2009 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 11-02-2009, 11:25 AM #14
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A squad of 10 guys with angels and paint to spare would ruin your day in that thing........
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:51 PM #15
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Tanks always improve paint sales.....
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:49 AM #16
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Our New Mech

Cant do the same thing twice, especially when we can improve on what got to learn what to do next. Check the You Tube link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8V1gkvBItk
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:11 AM #17
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Plus that's 10 guys with angels that's distracted on one target (Con) and having fun (Pro).
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:38 PM #18
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Yes, one of my tactics is to disrupt enemy missions and intimidate the other side. If I can tie up 20 players and force 2 bazookas to STAY and defend their base or and the others chase me around the field, I am consuming their resources and manpower. I have walked right into their insertion as they come out of their HQ. My mission was to destroy the base. I had to ignore their fire trying to get a clear shot through the woods with my cannon to destroy their HQ. I took a couple of cases of paint getting into position. They did their best to stop or slow me down. Less than 10 seconds after I destroyed the HQ, I was taken out by one of their bazookas. I knew I didn't have time to stop and engage the infantry. It was a suicide mission but point are points and Destroying HQ is worth a LOT of mission points.
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