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Old 07-06-2009, 08:28 PM #1
Ando, raider from mx (Banned)
 
 
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post ur artistic manifestos

basically anything interesting you've come to think about music. respond & debate as desired.

I'll start with this, to get things going:


I think white people, as a culture, have very little to say about the human condition and it's relation to personal suffering. This is because, historically, white people (again, as a culture) have suffered very little, relatively speaking. As a result, white musicians in general are less adept at evoking emotions of sorrow or ruefulness through both the devices of lyricism and syncopation. This is not to say they are less adept at this in the areas of harmony or melody.
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:45 PM #2
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thats some heavy **** bro
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:47 PM #3
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Weird, I've noticed the opposite.
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:50 PM #4
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I think that's a bit of an ignorant statement. Just because a black man's great-grandfather was a slave, does not mean he suddenly has a better perception on sorrow than anyone, based solely on race and culture.

Sorrow and suffering is through personal experience and perception. I had relatives in the holocaust, but does that make me more adept at understanding suffering? No, because it didn't happen to me, it happened to my relatives. Sure, you feel the impact of it, but your perception and overall expression of misery is no less in tune than a well faring line of royalty.

And not all races and cultures are oppressed equally everywhere. To say that Indians have a better outlook on suffering because their country is poverty stricken is entirely irrelevant, as an Indian banker living in America could have a completely different view on it.

Besides, sorrow and any emotion really, is subjective. People place higher regard into things than others. It's all perception, and manifestation of one's ego.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:16 PM #5
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what i meant is white culture is generally perceived as less oppressed, so it should follow that your average black guy knows more about impoverishment/griminess/death etc than the average white guy

i was speaking in contemporary terms, not really about one's ancestry

so because blacks (because that's basically who I'm talking about when I say "non-whites") have been the less well-off (or at least perceived as such) in virtually every era of American culture, they have historically had more interesting things to say about pain, etc

and I don't really buy that sadness is subjective: the worse your quality of life, and the greater your helplessness to change it, the more relevant your views on suffering are
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:21 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ando, raider from mx View Post
basically anything interesting you've come to think about music. respond & debate as desired.

I'll start with this, to get things going:


I think white people, as a culture, have very little to say about the human condition and it's relation to personal suffering. This is because, historically, white people (again, as a culture) have suffered very little, relatively speaking. As a result, white musicians in general are less adept at evoking emotions of sorrow or ruefulness through both the devices of lyricism and syncopation. This is not to say they are less adept at this in the areas of harmony or melody.
Yeah, white people didn't go through anything bad, and suffering as an entire culture is the only way to get inspiration for music. Last time I checked, individuals wrote music for culture, not the other way around. Of course, we all know that white people are, as you put it, "not to say they are less adept at this in the areas of harmony or melody." We all saw Discovery Channel's scientific study that measured those things as a culture and we lost to blacks but won over everyone else.

I could go on, but my point is that this is stupid. You're basically saying "Whitey ain't got no SOUL, mang!" with a bunch of inflated rhetoric. That's not the biggest problem I have with it: honestly, who gives a ****? You're not the first person or the last to bring this up.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:33 PM #7
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Yeah, white people didn't go through anything bad, and suffering as an entire culture is the only way to get inspiration for music. Last time I checked, individuals wrote music for culture, not the other way around. Of course, we all know that white people are, as you put it, "not to say they are less adept at this in the areas of harmony or melody." We all saw Discovery Channel's scientific study that measured those things as a culture and we lost to blacks but won over everyone else.

I could go on, but my point is that this is stupid. You're basically saying "Whitey ain't got no SOUL, mang!" with a bunch of inflated rhetoric. That's not the biggest problem I have with it: honestly, who gives a ****?
where do you think the individual draws his experience from to write music for the culture? It's circular, but the individual almost always draws more from society than he puts back in

i wouldn't say they have no soul because soul isn't quantifiable, and the word soul doesn't mean anything anyway. Syncopation and, albeit to a far lesser extent, poetry, are. That's what makes this different from saying "white people have no soul" with inflated rhetoric.

and no, I haven't empirically observed any of this, ran any z tests, or anything like that. This is all based on my experience and sensory interpretations of those experiences, which is obviously a very fallacious approach. But that leads me to address the "who gives a **** part"

with this thread i intend that people provoke discussion, bounce some ideas around, etc. Seeming as how I've manage to garner a few contrary opinions, and apparently offend some people on certain levels, I've achieved that purpose: exposing people to new ideas, make people remember why they think what they think, etc

which, ultimately, is why i use the internet, other than "for the lulz"
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:33 PM #8
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**** this thread.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:36 PM #9
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I don't think thats what he's saying. I think his point was that as a whole, blacks have it much tougher. So when it comes to writing music about pain and suffering they would naturally have the advantage.

Atleast, thats my interpretation.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:45 PM #10
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Originally Posted by Ando, raider from mx View Post
what i meant is white culture is generally perceived as less oppressed, so it should follow that your average black guy knows more about impoverishment/griminess/death etc than the average white guy

i was speaking in contemporary terms, not really about one's ancestry

so because blacks (because that's basically who I'm talking about when I say "non-whites") have been the less well-off (or at least perceived as such) in virtually every era of American culture, they have historically had more interesting things to say about pain, etc

and I don't really buy that sadness is subjective: the worse your quality of life, and the greater your helplessness to change it, the more relevant your views on suffering are
You're still not getting my point though. Unless you're talking about past black musicians as a whole, those that lived through it, it doesn't make any sense to say that their culture knows more pain than white people. THEY don't know pain, their ANCESTORS know pain. They simply have knowledge of the oppression, not firsthand experience. Was Hendrix sold into slavery? No. He was just an average black guy. But he knew how to groove, without being placed in a tougher situation in life than anyone else.

Cultural background is irrelevant. Nobody suddenly knows pain just because their race was oppressed well over a hundred years ago. Nor do they suddenly have this remarkable spark of creativity and ability to verse sorrow better than someone else, because they are statistically a minority. If anything, that's stereotyping, and borderline racism.

As for the subjectivity of sorrow argument, it's very true. Some people kill themselves when they lose their ipod, or get made fun of over myspace. The human ego is what associates values on everything in life, based upon your own fears and insecurities. A man with cancer may be more fearful of losing the title on his car, rather than dying. Human emotion is tied to the values we place on everything in our every day life. While through the eyes of a third party, once can associate who is in the worse position, the emotions of a man on his death bed, and that of a housewife stressing her taxes, could be very much the same. Both are equally capable of versing that sorrow.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:49 PM #11
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Originally Posted by komodo_117 View Post
I think that's a bit of an ignorant statement. Just because a black man's great-grandfather was a slave, does not mean he suddenly has a better perception on sorrow than anyone, based solely on race and culture.
You know what's ignorant, you assuming he's talking about black people.

You're just proving his point.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:49 PM #12
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Originally Posted by komodo_117 View Post
As for the subjectivity of sorrow argument, it's very true. Some people kill themselves when they lose their ipod, or get made fun of over myspace. The human ego is what associates values on everything in life, based upon your own fears and insecurities. A man with cancer may be more fearful of losing the title on his car, rather than dying. Human emotion is tied to the values we place on everything in our every day life. While through the eyes of a third party, once can associate who is in the worse position, the emotions of a man on his death bed, and that of a housewife stressing her taxes, could be very much the same. Both are equally capable of versing that sorrow.
Though what you posted is true, nobody wants to listen to a sappy song about a dude losing his ipod or getting made fun of on myspace. That's where the objective portion comes in. It's not so much that people perceive sorrow differently, but that they portray the essence of the sorrow that they experience through the music.

I partially support Ando, I think you guys are looking at his idea differently than what he's trying to get at.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:55 PM #13
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You're still not getting my point though. Unless you're talking about past black musicians as a whole, those that lived through it, it doesn't make any sense to say that their culture knows more pain than white people. Was Hendrix sold into slavery? No. He was just an average black guy. But he knew how to groove.
But Hendrix was of black culture. He cut his teeth playing black music.

I guess what I mean is that black MUSIC (not necessarily musicians) has more to say about suffering

And that music was foundationally built on a tradition of opression

Quote:
Cultural background is irrelevant. Nobody suddenly knows pain just because their race was oppressed well over a hundred years ago. Nor do they suddenly have this remarkable spark of creativity and ability to verse sorrow better than someone else, because they are statistically a minority. If anything, that's stereotyping, and borderline racism.
again, you're not getting it. I'm not saying black people are more adept in these areas because their grandfather was a slave. They're more proficient because they themselves are less well-off than whites

Quote:

As for the subjectivity of sorrow argument, it's very true. Some people kill themselves when they lose their ipod, or get made fun of over myspace.
The human ego is what associates values on everything in life, based upon your own fears and insecurities. A man with cancer may be more fearful of losing the title on his car, rather than dying. Human emotion is tied to the values we place on everything in our every day life. While through the eyes of a third party, once can associate who is in the worse position, the emotions of a man on his death bed, and that of a housewife stressing her taxes, could be very much the same. Both are equally capable of versing that sorrow.
yes, and it's not justified, or at least it doesn't matter

ultimately, yeah, sorrow is caused by neurons or something firing in the brain, and you might be able to measure intensity of sorrow by measuring brain chemical content or w/e (i'm no neuroscientist)

but insofar as putting that into song, that's not important

IE, the guy who sings "I lost my baby" is better at communicating sorrow than the guy who sings "I lost my ipod" whether or not he regretted losing his baby more than the guy who lost his ipod, because that more effectively speaks to the human condition

since I'm so bad at putting things simply, here's what saylor said:

Quote:
Though what you posted is true, nobody wants to listen to a sappy song about a dude losing his ipod or getting made fun of on myspace. That's where the objective portion comes in. It's not so much that people perceive sorrow differently, but that they portray the essence of the sorrow that they experience through the music.

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Old 07-06-2009, 09:57 PM #14
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You know what's ignorant, you assuming he's talking about black people.

You're just proving his point.
Well, let's not beat around the bush: Mostly, I'm referring to significant musical movements by american blacks versus music in the "white" tradition (ie, starting with baroque and on down through to contemporary western popular music)
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:58 PM #15
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You know what's ignorant, you assuming he's talking about black people.

You're just proving his point.
I'm just using black people as an example. I could have said about an Asian man's grandfather being a slave in the goldmines. It's the same ****ing difference.

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Though what you posted is true, nobody wants to listen to a sappy song about a dude losing his ipod or getting made fun of on myspace. That's where the objective portion comes in. It's not so much that people perceive sorrow differently, but that they portray the essence of the sorrow that they experience through the music.

I partially support Ando, I think you guys are looking at his idea differently than what he's trying to get at.
But that goes without saying: oppression doesn't single out race or culture. A rich yuppie who gets everything he wants could have his best friend die, and write a very powerful song about it. To try and say that any race holds a better perception of sorrow than another is dumb. It just turns into a dick showing contest. It's all equal, because everyone sees sorrow in a different way. Yes, a high class society wouldn't know anything about starvation or genocide, but then again, when was the last time you heard an Ethiopian singing about that on the radio, either?
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:03 PM #16
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I think it has more to do with the primal fears of humanity rather than the subjectivity of sorrow. Oppressed culture (in Ando's argument, nonwhites) are the ones experiencing the more extreme circumstances, so they also experience the more extreme mental stress. This is where the artistic translation would come from.
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:05 PM #17
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Originally Posted by Ando, raider from mx View Post
But Hendrix was of black culture. He cut his teeth playing black music.

I guess what I mean is that black MUSIC (not necessarily musicians) has more to say about suffering

And that music was foundationally built on a tradition of opression
That was all you needed to say.

But then, you're contradicting yourself though. Of COURSE a culture of music, based upon oppression, is going to be more sorrowful than anything else. That's where the music lies.

Just remember though, they could have sang happy ****, and modern day hip-hop could be about frolicking through cotton fields. The fact that they sang about sorrowful things was merely the chosen path of expression, just like any other genre, or culture of music.

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I think it has more to do with the primal fears of humanity rather than the subjectivity of sorrow. Oppressed culture (in Ando's argument, nonwhites) are the ones experiencing the more extreme circumstances, so they also experience the more extreme mental stress. This is where the artistic translation would come from.
True, but once again, an artistic mind, even without the collective experience of a whole culture, can still express it in the same manner. To limit it ONLY to that one specific group is rather blind, in terms of recognizing artists and entire cultures ways of conveying emotion.
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:07 PM #18
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Originally Posted by Ando, raider from mx View Post
where do you think the individual draws his experience from to write music for the culture? It's circular, but the individual almost always draws more from society than he puts back in

i wouldn't say they have no soul because soul isn't quantifiable, and the word soul doesn't mean anything anyway. Syncopation and, albeit to a far lesser extent, poetry, are. That's what makes this different from saying "white people have no soul" with inflated rhetoric.

and no, I haven't empirically observed any of this, ran any z tests, or anything like that. This is all based on my experience and sensory interpretations of those experiences, which is obviously a very fallacious approach. But that leads me to address the "who gives a **** part"

with this thread i intend that people provoke discussion, bounce some ideas around, etc. Seeming as how I've manage to garner a few contrary opinions, and apparently offend some people on certain levels, I've achieved that purpose: exposing people to new ideas, make people remember why they think what they think, etc

which, ultimately, is why i use the internet, other than "for the lulz"
Personally, I think music, like all art forms, is subjective, so that's what i meant by 'who gives a ****' and the sentence after that. For the most part, you're just going to hear everyone's opinions, none of them will change, and if that is what you aimed for then mission accomplished. People really don't change, especially musicians and music addicts because musical taste is subjective. It's not like I can come up with any hard evidence to prove or debunk you, nor do i care what you think. You're entitled to your own opinion and I'm glad you seem to be one of those higher functioning individuals who have the neurons to complete an intelligent thought OTI WITHOUT tYPING lIkE AN iDiOt or copying off of Wikipedia.

Also, I think you should change your maifesto to choose one specific culture. Do you mean the entire world, or just American? There's a difference. In Europe, where nationality and ethnicity matters (not like here where every whitey is Irish, German, and whatever, and the most ethnic we get is getting drunk on st pats/oktoberfest/whatever), whites suffered a lot from other whites too.

As far as discussions go, I try not to have them OTI. Not that I'm calling you an idiot, but I can usually tell if someone's an idiot by how long they take to respond to a point or counter point IRL. Idiots don't get the privilege to continue a conversation because I don't like headaches. That, and you can really measure a person by how well they can defend an arguement, and it makes a discussion that much deeper and meaningful if it's quick, intelligent, and full of thoughts and ideas. I just don't get the speed and response I like in an intelligent conversation on a message board or AIm or something.
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:08 PM #19
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But that goes without saying: oppression doesn't single out race or culture. A rich yuppie who gets everything he wants could have his best friend die, and write a very powerful song about it. To try and say that any race holds a better perception of sorrow than another is dumb. It just turns into a dick showing contest. It's all equal, because everyone sees sorrow in a different way. Yes, a high class society wouldn't know anything about starvation or genocide, but then again, when was the last time you heard an Ethiopian singing about that on the radio, either?
I agree. Oppression hits out multiple cultures and races, but not the American White culture.

It's worth noting that this is a generalization. In general, white people do not go through "hard times" compared to nonwhites. Of course a white guy can have his best friend die. But nonwhites are likelier to be exposed to a livingspace in which tragedies such as that are more likely. And I'm not suggesting that's a result of race or anything, just noting a correlation.
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:11 PM #20
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True, but once again, an artistic mind, even without the collective experience of a whole culture, can still express it in the same manner. To limit it ONLY to that one specific group is rather blind, in terms of recognizing artists and entire cultures ways of conveying emotion.
I'm not limiting the group, I'm addressing the ability for an individual of that group to relate their own experiences (which is drawn partially from the group to which they belong) into an artistic statement (in this case, sorrowful music).
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:13 PM #21
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I agree. Oppression hits out multiple cultures and races, but not the American White culture.

It's worth noting that this is a generalization. In general, white people do not go through "hard times" compared to nonwhites. Of course a white guy can have his best friend die. But nonwhites are likelier to be exposed to a livingspace in which tragedies such as that are more likely. And I'm not suggesting that's a result of race or anything, just noting a correlation.
Agreed.

I'm now jumping out of this argument because I have to take a ****, and need sleep, and this will have progressed too far before I can come back.

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I'm not limiting the group, I'm addressing the ability for an individual of that group to relate their own experiences (which is drawn partially from the group to which they belong) into an artistic statement (in this case, sorrowful music).
But what I'm saying is, one does not need to be from that group in order to still make that relation, and produce an artistic statement from it.
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