Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-08-2009, 05:19 PM #85
cuttlefish32
 
 
cuttlefish32's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron5604 View Post
Alright, but ask yourself this:

Would you then proceed to call that an actual "trial" as stated, or just plain and pointless cruelty?
Its possible that a person fails the trial because of his ignorance or lack of faith. I doubt God would create a trial for people that they can't win, so its not cruel. But for those who fail the trial, it serves as a punishment (ex. failing a test)
__________________
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.
-Henry Ford
cuttlefish32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:36 PM #86
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuttlefish32 View Post
Its possible that a person fails the trial because of his ignorance or lack of faith. I doubt God would create a trial for people that they can't win, so its not cruel. But for those who fail the trial, it serves as a punishment (ex. failing a test)
You are missing the point. God is all knowing, therefore He knows your fate. That is why we say God testing people is dumb because he already knows the answer.

1. God is all knowing
2. God does not know the future
Therefore, God is not all knowing
Given the contradiction, we must say that God does know the future, or else he would not be all knowing like stated in the Bible, and not perfect.

So now we need not to bother constantly including knowing the future with all knowing because all knowing assumes knowing the future.

A test would be pointless given the description of god with respect to the Bible. Unless you are willing to say that god is NOT all knowing.
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:39 PM #87
hsilman
Disgustipated
 
hsilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
You are missing the point. God is all knowing, therefore He knows your fate. That is why we say God testing people is dumb because he already knows the answer.

1. God is all knowing
2. God does not know the future
Therefore, God is not all knowing
Given the contradiction, we must say that God does know the future, or else he would not be all knowing like stated in the Bible, and not perfect.

So now we need not to bother constantly including knowing the future with all knowing because all knowing assumes knowing the future.

A test would be pointless given the description of god with respect to the Bible. Unless you are willing to say that god is NOT all knowing.
does God have power over things that don't exist?
__________________
This is necessary. Life feeds on life
feeds on life
feeds on life
hsilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:41 PM #88
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
does God have power over things that don't exist?
good question - how does it pertain?
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:50 PM #89
fainerbainer
CK
 
fainerbainer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northwest
fainerbainer has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
fainerbainer has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
fainerbainer has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
good question - how does it pertain?
Actions...future....doesn't exist. If God doesn't have control over which doesn't exist your actions don't exist until they exist.

What if God limited his all knowing or limited sovereignty? I doubt much people against Christianity have a good grasp on the theology of Open Theism, which Harry has continually proposed.

I don't adhere to it. But I do believe that God limits his sovereignty in some form or fashion especially concerning salvation or the process therein.

That's within the Calvin vs. Arm. debate and is off-topic. Anyway, if God doesn't control that which doesn't exist who are we to say he is a deterministic God?
fainerbainer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:53 PM #90
hsilman
Disgustipated
 
hsilman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Big Apple
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
good question - how does it pertain?
basically what fainer said.

the future doesn't exist, so how does God "know" it. the past has existed, and the present exists, but the future is an idea that doesn't actually exist in any tangible way.
__________________
This is necessary. Life feeds on life
feeds on life
feeds on life
hsilman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 06:05 PM #91
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by fainerbainer View Post
Actions...future....doesn't exist. If God doesn't have control over which doesn't exist your actions don't exist until they exist.

What if God limited his all knowing or limited sovereignty? I doubt much people against Christianity have a good grasp on the theology of Open Theism, which Harry has continually proposed.

I don't adhere to it. But I do believe that God limits his sovereignty in some form or fashion especially concerning salvation or the process therein.

That's within the Calvin vs. Arm. debate and is off-topic. Anyway, if God doesn't control that which doesn't exist who are we to say he is a deterministic God?
If God does not control what does not exist, then he would not be omnipotent, right? You keep saying god has limits, but the point is god does not have limits. I like the retort, but I don't think it concludes the argument. Remember, everything comes into existence BECAUSE of God - is not god suppose to be the "prime mover"?
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 06:17 PM #92
fainerbainer
CK
 
fainerbainer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northwest
fainerbainer has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
fainerbainer has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
fainerbainer has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
If God does not control what does not exist, then he would not be omnipotent, right? You keep saying god has limits, but the point is god does not have limits. I like the retort, but I don't think it concludes the argument. Remember, everything comes into existence BECAUSE of God - is not god suppose to be the "prime mover"?
Here's the deal though. You aren't even grasping the concept that maybe God doesn't fit into those well-defined OMNI definitions. It would take a LOT of time to go through all the Open Theism tangents as well as other ideas behind limited sovereignty by choice.

Seems like in the OT God had conditions in which the people should operate and there were two outcomes. Therefore, the fate was up to those who CHOSE the future. Not a God who FORCED the future.

Also, foreknowledge/=/omnipotence. Now, I don't subscribe to God limiting his knowledge, but that could very well be the case.

Just as I believe that God limits is anger (or at least propitiates to somewhere else).

Just because you believe you know what Christians believe doesn't make it dogma.

What Harry and I are talking about is pretty simple to grasp. The future doesn't exist...it seems that God doesn't necessarily know the outcome of certain events in the Bible, and AFTER that event (hindsight) sends prophets, people, intervention.

Open Theism actually is appealing because it means that a lot of other paradoxes come into clearer view.

Now I believe that God does know the future, but as far as intervening there is the limitation of sovereignty over that free will. That he allows things to happen (evil and good).

And within that I don't see a demoralizing God but a loving God that supplies grace to even the world in which doesn't deserve it. It's called universal grace, and those that recognize it are within "saving" grace.

Maybe Harry can expound but it's like trying to explain to a guy born with no hands what it feels like to swing a bat or hit a golf ball.

Which is also what the Bible teaches as does Jesus IMO.

Two intelligent beings can come to far different conclusions concerning the same idea/principles/data. And even that dichotomy points me in a direction of intelligence being a part of soul/spirit rather than a material existence.

Anyway, hope it makes sense.
fainerbainer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 06:25 PM #93
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by fainerbainer View Post

1. Here's the deal though. You aren't even grasping the concept that maybe God doesn't fit into those well-defined OMNI definitions. It would take a LOT of time to go through all the Open Theism tangents as well as other ideas behind limited sovereignty by choice.

Seems like in the OT God had conditions in which the people should operate and there were two outcomes. Therefore, the fate was up to those who CHOSE the future. Not a God who FORCED the future.
1. Yes, I was stressing the omni-adjectives because I thought that was how god was described. Now I may be wrong, but is not god described in that way (all knowing, all powerful....etc)?

Given your example from the OT where God gives people decisions to do what they want (and it is important we use the OT because this is where we derive the omni-sense of god), how does this affect god's status as a perfect being?

As you see, saying that god is not all perfect seems to draw some funky lines. I will wait for your response before I say anything more.
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 06:28 PM #94
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
PS harry i am going to add your *** on facebook
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 06:41 PM #95
NAACP. (Banned)
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
What makes all of you assume that events in your life are tests, perhaps they're opportunities?
NAACP. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 07:17 PM #96
markcheb
surrender...don't move
 
markcheb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: across the Jordan river
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAACP. View Post
What makes all of you assume that events in your life are tests, perhaps they're opportunities?
Ding!

Test = fail
Opportunity = Growth.

Life is growth in one form or another. God is not in R&D, He's in the production department.

God all everythingwecanthinkof - No

God has allowed Himself to be limited by His word.
__________________
Which thief ~~ are you?
ChristKrew #185
Anointing foreheads with the paintball for a while now.
Where's God? - Read Luke 15:11-32
markcheb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 07:19 PM #97
cuttlefish32
 
 
cuttlefish32's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by fainerbainer View Post
Seems like in the OT God had conditions in which the people should operate and there were two outcomes. Therefore, the fate was up to those who CHOSE the future. Not a God who FORCED the future.
At least for myself, I never said God forced the future upon people, I just meant that he knows the future.
__________________
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.
-Henry Ford
cuttlefish32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 07:20 PM #98
cuttlefish32
 
 
cuttlefish32's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by markcheb View Post
Ding!

Test = fail
Opportunity = Growth.

Life is growth in one form or another. God is not in R&D, He's in the production department.

God all everythingwecanthinkof - No

God has allowed Himself to be limited by His word.
A big for the first part. Opportunities would be a better word for it.
Unfortunatly, for the second part, if God can linit himself by his word, then he could create a rock that he could not lift.
__________________
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.
-Henry Ford
cuttlefish32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 07:33 PM #99
NAACP. (Banned)
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuttlefish32 View Post
A big for the first part. Opportunities would be a better word for it.
Unfortunatly, for the second part, if God can linit himself by his word, then he could create a rock that he could not lift.
Well, I don't agree with their statement, but it'd be more of Allah choosing not to lift something rather than not actually being able to.
NAACP. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 07:53 PM #100
Laureate
strength beyond strength
 
Laureate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuttlefish32 View Post
A big for the first part. Opportunities would be a better word for it.
Unfortunatly, for the second part, if God can linit himself by his word, then he could create a rock that he could not lift.
George! We did the rock paradox! He does both, he is not bound by logic!
__________________
ST:F - Playin with the boys
Laureate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 08:10 PM #101
cuttlefish32
 
 
cuttlefish32's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
George! We did the rock paradox! He does both, he is not bound by logic!
Exactly, thats why I don't agree with the second part. And Dylan, I wouldn't forget what you taught me.
__________________
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.
-Henry Ford
cuttlefish32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 08:13 PM #102
fainerbainer
CK
 
fainerbainer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northwest
fainerbainer has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
fainerbainer has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
fainerbainer has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laureate View Post
1. Yes, I was stressing the omni-adjectives because I thought that was how god was described. Now I may be wrong, but is not god described in that way (all knowing, all powerful....etc)?

Given your example from the OT where God gives people decisions to do what they want (and it is important we use the OT because this is where we derive the omni-sense of god), how does this affect god's status as a perfect being?

As you see, saying that god is not all perfect seems to draw some funky lines. I will wait for your response before I say anything more.
Well I look at the Omni-adjective with extreme caution. They are what they are but are limited also.

Just with the "trinity". No where in the Bible does it say "trinity". No where in the Bible does it say "Hey, I'm God and I'm Omni-everything". Same goes for people who say that God's word is innerrant and infallible...I don't fall into that category of belief (with our current translations...RP has a good thread on that whole idea)

The whole omni-adjectives come from an academia mindset. Like I said earlier....looking at God is like looking at a gem, sometimes we over-analyze one side of the cut instead of looking at the whole gem for what it is.

Now, I believe that the Bible teaches that God does know all...but again, I also believe that the revelation of the Bible is still INCOMPLETE and locked within anthropomorphism. I believe that I could be very wrong about this whole God/Jesus/Bible thing and just DIE and that's it. But I also, at the same time, know that what is contained within my knowledge is incomplete...even the Bible is incomplete.

So is God all those omni-things? According to the ones doing the defining, yes. But I also see validity in that he might NOT be omni-everything.

I know that sounds like circles...but perfection can allow limitations right? What if God did limit his foreknowledge? What if God does work within Open Theism (he limits his future knowings because the action hasn't started).

Does that make him any less "perfect"? I would conclude that it doesn't. Others will think it's silly and a false presumption.

I see a God of the OT who is patient, kind, etc. and throughout the NT. Now, there are some things I"m unsettled about (killings, etc.) but most of the killings stem around rebellion and the warnings they had before the rebellion happened. Jars of clay in the potter's hands is what I conclude.

Anyway, not sure if that clarified anything...but I have no qualms with a God who reveals himself while at the same time limiting his omni-qualities.

Again, just a tip of the toe in the lake. Letters from a Skeptic by Greg Boyd would give you a little more insight as to where I'm coming from with all this. I have a copy somewhere, just not sure where it is.
fainerbainer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 08:19 PM #103
NEp8ntballer
 
 
NEp8ntballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
NEp8ntballer supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamboPreacher View Post
why ask why?
why not?
__________________
best porn thread in ST history by ScorpionShock - I was there 6/7 or 6/8 depending on your timezone

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Official ST Atheists #8


Old Feedback
NEp8ntballer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 08:27 PM #104
cuttlefish32
 
 
cuttlefish32's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by fainerbainer View Post
Well I look at the Omni-adjective with extreme caution. They are what they are but are limited also.

I know that sounds like circles...but perfection can allow limitations right
According to dictionary.com "omni" means all, so there is no limitation, its all knowing or all powerful.

Also, perfect means excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement or accurate, exact, or correct in every detail or entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings. So once again, there are no limitations that are benefictial.
__________________
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.
-Henry Ford
cuttlefish32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 09:15 PM #105
Aaron5604
Nothing is what it seems
 
Aaron5604's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsilman View Post
basically what fainer said.

the future doesn't exist, so how does God "know" it. the past has existed, and the present exists, but the future is an idea that doesn't actually exist in any tangible way.
I'd say probably within the same guidelines as to how God suddenly created the Heavens and the Earth. I mean, does that honestly make any sense? No, because I personally think that's the basic idea intended for, "faith" purposes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAACP. View Post
What makes all of you assume that events in your life are tests, perhaps they're opportunities?
The book of James covers "trials" in that fashion, but that's really besides the point I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuttlefish32 View Post
According to dictionary.com "omni" means all, so there is no limitation, its all knowing or all powerful.

Also, perfect means excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement or accurate, exact, or correct in every detail or entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings. So once again, there are no limitations that are benefictial.
Yeah, sounds like we're just going in circles. And, (again) isn't this the gist point here?

Not being flip; I'm just saying
__________________
"Seeing Is Believing" and Ignorance is DEFINITELY bliss.

JL Audio - 1000/1 Amp + 3 10W3V3 Subs (Enclosed) + Focal Access 130A1 Comps. for sale. PM me for details.

Last edited by Aaron5604 : 07-08-2009 at 09:20 PM.
Aaron5604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump