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Old 07-06-2009, 08:10 AM #22
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Originally Posted by NEp8ntballer View Post
because a lot of people don't ask these questions and if they do they aren't met with open ears. one person I know asked his mother what peopel eat in heaven when he was younger. Answer: Milk and Honey. Next question: do they have to use the bathroom? answer: why do you wanna know Response: because if they have to go to the bathroom, then they need to have somewhere to go, and if they have somewhere to go then where does their poop go? Retort: *SMACK*(back then you could get the tar beat out of you and it wouldn't be child abuse)

another good one is if when a baby dies if they go to heaven as a baby or as an adult? Or if you die in a horrendous accident do you go to heaven all disfigured and possibly missing body parts or perfect?
I'm sorry for that kind of response, and I know it happens a lot because many people aren't even that sure of their own religious beliefs and feel the need to push them on their children even if they don't really know what it's all about.

I'm a bit surprised because those are, as one might expect from a child, incredibly easy answers. Biblically, you are given a new body in Heaven. That answers your last question. It possibly answers your first question, though the real answer is simply "I don't know". Why substitute violence for an "i don't know" is beyond me but it happens often.

Lastly, as to a "test", I really don't know but I doubt God tests people in the way they say, because the relationship isn't about that anyways. There's a lot of debate among biblical scholars as to if the book of Job is supposed to be a story or literally true. Lots of exegesis surrounding that one.

As for the "testing when he knows the outcome", I don't believe God either knows the outcome, or remains willfully ignorant of it. He will push people one way or another often, as in Psalm 66 I believe(somewhere thereabouts) where it says "God laid heavy on me", but I don't believe God forces outcomes though at times, especially in the OT he was, shall we say, quite insistent. Again, I have no idea if this is a lack of ability or a willful choice by God not to interfere at that level but that part isn't totally relevant.

I don't believe God "tests" people, since that carries negative connotations in our culture that I can't reconcile a loving God with. I do believe that this existence will often "test" us, either due to our own actions or circumstances beyond our control and that, if God exists, he is there with us in those moments, hoping and possibly prodding us to do things the way he made us to do them, and not some other way.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:15 AM #23
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Well, considering the OP referenced Job I think it's safe to deny that it was anything but a test.

God and Satan had a bet. Satan said Job only loves God because God treats him well. God said, Job loves me because he loves me. What did they do? Satan posed a Hypothesis (challenge) and God let Satan test Job's will. It wasn't God who decided to put Job through trials to see how he'd fair. He tested him to prove Satan wrong.

Jr,
While that's true, but there's one things you missed. Job fails, he curses the day he was born, but then all he does is repent for his sins and God gives him everything back and Satan (for some reason) never calls that cheating. So if it's not a test, what is it? An example toward others to follow when times get bad?
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:20 AM #24
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Oh, there was a giant thread long ago (before i left for a year) that had to do with the topic. It boiled down to a very terrible game of semantics in which the standard definitions didn't fit certain individuals desired definitions....That and a bit of 'God exists out of space/time' and a side of "God is too complex for human understanding"

Jr,
I don't want that to happen but I have to bring up the point that if God is all knowing he knows how the test will end, but if he is all loving as well, he would want the test to end benefitting the person, right? Yet most times people are tested they lose their job, they're homes, etc. The only way God could get away with tests like that is if he thinks material goods are useless.
...
I think I've just stumbled on the answer. If a spirtual journey/test causes someone to lose worthless material items, who cares? This person has undoubtly learned more about himself and his God, and if his material possessions blinds him to not love God with all his heart, then he is breaking commandment #2, no false idols.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:42 AM #25
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...
I think I've just stumbled on the answer. If a spiritual journey/test causes someone to lose worthless material items, who cares? This person has undoubtedly learned more about himself and his God, and if his material possessions blinds him to not love God with all his heart, then he is breaking commandment #2, no false idols.
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Old 07-06-2009, 11:36 AM #26
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I think I've just stumbled on the answer. If a spirtual journey/test causes someone to lose worthless material items, who cares? This person has undoubtly learned more about himself and his God, and if his material possessions blinds him to not love God with all his heart, then he is breaking commandment #2, no false idols.
But why is there a need for someone to be born into a material world then be forced to reckon with their material body? I see that as completely pointless, why is that necesssary
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Old 07-06-2009, 11:38 AM #27
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Old 07-06-2009, 11:50 AM #28
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But why is there a need for someone to be born into a material world then be forced to reckon with their material body? I see that as completely pointless, why is that necesssary
regardless of the answer to the question of a material world and testing and such, you aren't robbed of material happiness, just material possessions which are certainly separate from your material body. We don't by nature desire more objects, just by sociological conditioning. There are certainly societies in this world without our consumerist obsession with "material wealth".
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Old 07-06-2009, 11:57 AM #29
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why ask why?
Nice try. But someone obviously gave a **** enough (your god) to go to the extent to create a universe, which has a bogus purpose
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Old 07-06-2009, 04:53 PM #30
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But why is there a need for someone to be born into a material world then be forced to reckon with their material body? I see that as completely pointless, why is that necesssary
Because if someone can overcome the temptations of the material world, that shows a great love in Christ. As for the "material body" I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Also, what hsilman said.
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Old 07-06-2009, 05:41 PM #31
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Because if someone can overcome the temptations of the material world, that shows a great love in Christ. As for the "material body" I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Also, what hsilman said.
I hate to be pedantic, but where does that say so in the Bible? Even if it does, that is the dumbest purpose for life.
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Old 07-06-2009, 05:43 PM #32
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I hate to be pedantic, but where does that say so in the Bible? Even if it does, that is the dumbest purpose for life.
how does one judge a "purpose for life" as "dumb" or "smart"? Isn't it just...well, what it is? you can't quantitatively judge it.

That's like saying gravity is dumb.
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Old 07-06-2009, 06:02 PM #33
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In the Bible....explicitly a lot of things aren't "taught"

though, implicitly we can come to some conclusions on purpose...materialism, etc. Hsilman does a good job at that.
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Old 07-06-2009, 06:03 PM #34
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how does one judge a "purpose for life" as "dumb" or "smart"? Isn't it just...well, what it is? you can't quantitatively judge it.

That's like saying gravity is dumb.
The existence of a purpose for life implies some type of intelligent/anthropic source or reference point. If such a source does not exist, then what we're talking about isn't a purpose at all. You can't apply a semantically empty, objective qualifier to something like a purpose, because its very definition is rooted in the exact opposite.
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Old 07-06-2009, 06:26 PM #35
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The existence of a purpose for life implies some type of intelligent/anthropic source or reference point. If such a source does not exist, then what we're talking about isn't a purpose at all. You can't apply a semantically empty, objective qualifier to something like a purpose, because its very definition is rooted in the exact opposite.
you're emphasizing the wrong word.
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Old 07-06-2009, 06:36 PM #36
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how does one judge a "purpose for life" as "dumb" or "smart"? Isn't it just...well, what it is? you can't quantitatively judge it.

That's like saying gravity is dumb.
I fully hereby imply PSR and ask why the fact is so
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Old 07-06-2009, 07:32 PM #37
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I fully hereby imply PSR and ask why the fact is so
In response I hereby explicitly state that Schopenhauer was a retard. In response, I recommend reading Philosophical Fragments to understand how facts of this nature can be known without PSR.

heck, any existentialist or even Foucault would give you a slew of explanations as to why PSR is a boatload of bull****. But Kierkegaard integrates the specific "facts" that we're discussing into his rationale. Feel free to read others, like Sartre.

*disclaimer for future discussions*Yes, I have a tendency, possibly even enjoy calling those I disagree with retards. I understand for the most part when it comes to historic philosophers they were generally a lot smarter than me. That doesn't mean the concept they(or you) came up with is not, for lack of a more fun word, retarded. I will call them retards. If you agree with them, I will call you a retard. I will rarely explain to you why.

If you don't want to go through that or disagree with my methodology, don't respond to my posts and let me play in the corner myself like a retard. thank you.
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Old 07-06-2009, 07:49 PM #38
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I hate to be pedantic, but where does that say so in the Bible? Even if it does, that is the dumbest purpose for life.
It doesn't say that but it says the oppisite is bad. A derise for material goods not only could go so far as to worshipping false idols, but it could also lead to greed and envy. Why do you think Jesus chose simple fishermen to become his deciples? Becuase material goods weren't important. It may sound cliche, but it's whats inside that counts.

And as for the dumbest purpose in life? Thats a bold statement, espiecally since Buddhism talks of a desire for material goods as bad.
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Old 07-06-2009, 07:57 PM #39
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In response I hereby explicitly state that Schopenhauer was a retard. In response, I recommend reading Philosophical Fragments to understand how facts of this nature can be known without PSR.

heck, any existentialist or even Foucault would give you a slew of explanations as to why PSR is a boatload of bull****. But Kierkegaard integrates the specific "facts" that we're discussing into his rationale. Feel free to read others, like Sartre.

*disclaimer for future discussions*Yes, I have a tendency, possibly even enjoy calling those I disagree with retards. I understand for the most part when it comes to historic philosophers they were generally a lot smarter than me. That doesn't mean the concept they(or you) came up with is not, for lack of a more fun word, retarded. I will call them retards. If you agree with them, I will call you a retard. I will rarely explain to you why.

If you don't want to go through that or disagree with my methodology, don't respond to my posts and let me play in the corner myself like a retard. thank you.
Lol, I said it for the sake of your response. I already spent 2 hours today reading why it was wrong.

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It doesn't say that but it says the oppisite is bad. A derise for material goods not only could go so far as to worshipping false idols, but it could also lead to greed and envy. Why do you think Jesus chose simple fishermen to become his deciples? Becuase material goods weren't important. It may sound cliche, but it's whats inside that counts.
But why? What is the necessity behind this?
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:05 PM #40
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But why? What is the necessity behind this?
explain the meaning of the word "necessity" in this usage.
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:19 PM #41
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explain the meaning of the word "necessity" in this usage.
Why does God find it necessary to test human beings? Why does God bring people into the world to fulfill these "purposes"?
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:46 PM #42
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It's strange that there is still discussion of whether God tests us. The talk about 'testing' through removal of material possessions got me to thinking.

God only has two questions of his test:
a) Do you accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour
b) Do you repent your sins

Everything else is a bonus question (Living a good life, being kind, generous, following his laws etc). Even if you ace the aforementioned the only two that count at the end are a & b.

Now, Christians very much differ on this as some will argue that God judges you based on how much you know. Many Christians don't give them that benefit though. It's been argued that God makes his true self apparent to everyone and if you don't pick up on it then that's your fault.

Really, there's 6B people on earth in addition to all the others who have lived since humans became a species and the test is simply how many will fulfill a & b.

How many good Muslims, Jews, Hindus (could go on) have been 'Good' people yet according to the Bible didn't pass the 'test'.

As far as I'm concerned and have seen argued on this thread as well as many others the Religious say everything they can to make their God look merciful and kind and all encompassing yet they boil down to the same thing.

"Do you worship ME? No? Damn you."

Jr,

P.S I know this is going to get picked apart so I have to ask; do you honestly believe that the test I layed out is incorrect? Does our entire life not boil down to our judgement on whether or not we accept Jesus and repent? Do you believe it's fully possible for a knowledgeable Atheist to go to Heaven while rejecting the Bible?

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