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Old 07-31-2009, 11:11 PM #232
Aaron5604
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Originally Posted by markcheb View Post
I honestly don't see how this illustrates a disbelief in God. All it suggests to me is that science does not hold all the answers, though I do agree with the acceleration of discovery the future holds many wonders.
Well, then could you please provide scientific knowledge that reflects God as being a possibility? I'm getting a little bored reading things that implicate otherwise.

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But this does get to the core of where we are. I think it is safe to say that you know that through scientific discovery we will find "things", for lack of a better word, that we haven't even begun to imagine. Now what exactly is this "knowledge" based on? Is it based on personal experience with these "mysteries"? Is it a "gut feeling"? Did you get a "warm fuzzy feeling"? It may contain elements of each but I'm sure that this "knowledge" transcends this and couldn't be reduced to all that. I accept that freely, I share the same outlook on science.
I don't understand this portion here. Are you primarily going over your thoughts on science or religion?

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Now before we get into "human's natural curiosity" and other justifications. How do you personally know? And if I wanted to hold to the model you've given me, you can't use any scientific discovery to justify your understanding of where that knowledge comes from.
I'm not sure I'm following you here either. In the end, I don't KNOW anything, the same as you.

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That leaves me with faith. When we apply this to theist atheist understanding, it is the difference. The theist possess it the atheist doesn't, that much is obvious. Allowing for that same "knowledge" for the theist, please explain the lack of knowledge for the atheist. If the "knowledge" was human nature, then it would actually be present and we would need to call the atheist a liar. I'm not prepared to do that, though I realize I called atheism dishonest, but is he flat out lying? No I don't believe so. If it was environmental, then please explain the little boy scenario I gave earlier. The atheist' faith as you describe it is actually non-faith then. So where does this non-faith faith derive from? From himself.

It would be so much easier for me personally to accept that he is lying or been misinformed but I can't. Ruling out both the personal moral Psyche (I hope that's an accurate word for it) and environmental influence, where does this leave me? Theology. I understand you are not going to agree, but the scientific model can't be used to explain this phenomena, at least at this point in time. Will it ever? Based on what "knowledge"?
There is no gray, none at all. You either HAVE "faith" or you don't, it's that simple. Now, the difference is NOT the true definition of, "faith" but the mere content in which either party may be using, or not using when grasping onto any unprovable theory. God, is obviously unprovable (a theory); no god is just as unprovable (a theory.) A theist can say that he/she believes in God, just as an Atheist can deny. What both are then left with is evidence in which may imply the possibility, or impossibility depending on which side you have chosen. Now, where "faith" comes into play is being able to in fact HOLD ON to whichever theory w/out having a FULL explanation, or understanding. Heck, you can even have no implicating evidence and yet still have faith, but that would be completely illogical since in order to really establish that faith to begin with, you have to FIRST determine whether that origin (or lack of?) is even possible. Otherwise, people will likely just think you're delusional. They'll probably then ask if you believe in (for example) cookie monsters as well, just to put it all in better perspective.

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I agree with Laureates statement the religious decisions can be emotionally based. People are fallible, but without religious understanding that statement makes no sense, and may not represent their faith as it should be. But then who are you allowing to influence your faith, them or God? If it is from God why would you allow people to push you from it? If it is from man then why would you pursue it?
No belief in which I'm basing my opinion on is ever derived from human nature, (man) nor written text of any kind -- in essence. It's all FIRST established from what has already been around well before man even cease to exist. In other words, I look at the world I live in (the reality of life) and use my judgement to the best of my abilities. I try not to allow ANY influence (no emotion) to steer my observation; I look at what can ONLY be fact first, then form a rational opinion hoping that it all still holds true in the end.
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:28 PM #233
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You said you don't allow any influence to steer your observation of the world. So I suppose you are ignoring the things your science teachers have told you because you cannot take their words for it...
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:55 PM #234
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You said you don't allow any influence to steer your observation of the world. So I suppose you are ignoring the things your science teachers have told you because you cannot take their words for it...
Influence = emotion, hence the "()" marks at the end of the word. And, depends on what you mean exactly by, "ignoring" things taught in class. I'll sit there and absorb it most likely, but I won't officially stand by anything (making it my bread and butter) until I apply it several times over myself. So, until I can give a sufficient explanation on something at length -- I'll usually just keep quiet by letting it be, w/ really no opinion in either direction.
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Old 08-01-2009, 12:50 AM #235
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late entrance but i would say, to answer the OPs question, to have an outcome.
if there was no test, he would not 'know the outcome', as there would not be anything to come from, since, there is no test.
he does so in order to provide you with a stimulus of growth, not for ****s and giggles
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Old 08-01-2009, 10:49 AM #236
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late entrance but i would say, to answer the OPs question, to have an outcome.
if there was no test, he would not 'know the outcome', as there would not be anything to come from, since, there is no test.
he does so in order to provide you with a stimulus of growth, not for ****s and giggles
Again, he could have created a system in which this was not necessary. "He tests us because it's better that way!" is a non-answer. It doesn't answer the problem that God could have created a system which was much more forgiving for his creations that he "loves" so much. The question is, "why did God make it so that we need conflict for there to be progress?" Saying, "Because you need conflict for progress!" isn't an answer.
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Old 08-01-2009, 10:51 AM #237
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Again, he could have created a system in which this was not necessary. "He tests us because it's better that way!" is a non-answer. It doesn't answer the problem that God could have created a system which was much more forgiving for his creations that he "loves" so much. The question is, "why did God make it so that we need conflict for there to be progress?" Saying, "Because you need conflict for progress!" isn't an answer.
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Old 08-01-2009, 03:43 PM #238
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Leibniz's explanation is the same thing. In responding to the question of how an omnibenevolent God could create such a conflicted world, he simply said that God is omnibenevolent, therefore the world we have must be the best possible world. What a cop out.
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Old 08-01-2009, 03:47 PM #239
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Leibniz's explanation is the same thing. In responding to the question of how an omnibenevolent God could create such a conflicted world, he simply said that God is omnibenevolent, therefore the world we have must be the best possible world. What a cop out.
on the other side of the coin your ability to imagine the world a different way that you think would be better, doesn't make the world you imagine actually better. Holocaust or not, as a history major you must realize the "choice causes" of killing people on that scale goes back hundreds of years. Just saying "A world without the holocaust would have been better" is pretty simplistic and probably wrong. Not to mention it assigns values and other things I can talk about which are necessarily non-universal.

but without the details or my example which can be argued about forever, the point remains that just because you imagine a world which you think is better, doesn't actually disprove Leibniz's explanation.
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:17 PM #240
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on the other side of the coin your ability to imagine the world a different way that you think would be better, doesn't make the world you imagine actually better. Holocaust or not, as a history major you must realize the "choice causes" of killing people on that scale goes back hundreds of years. Just saying "A world without the holocaust would have been better" is pretty simplistic and probably wrong. Not to mention it assigns values and other things I can talk about which are necessarily non-universal.

but without the details or my example which can be argued about forever, the point remains that just because you imagine a world which you think is better, doesn't actually disprove Leibniz's explanation.
The same goes for Leibniz's assertion though. It proves nothing. My assertion is based on the ideas put forth in the Bible. My point is that they don't jive with reality. The idea of the God of the Bible creating this world is logical enough. He is at times angry, jealous, happy, sad, disappointed, conflicted, and etc, much like our world. However, the idea that this God is perfect and just is illogical. This is the reason I believe in a God synonymous with nature. Nature is perfectly objective and amoral. There is no right or wrong in nature, nor does nature cast judgments. It merely operates according to set laws and is what it is. That's perfect, not a divine being or character who makes decisions, casts judgment, experiences emotions, etc.
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:30 PM #241
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If nature is the divinity, and we are a part of that divinity, wouldn't that make us divine beings who do all those things? How does that fit?

Not flaming I'm honestly asking.
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:37 PM #242
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If nature is the divinity, and we are a part of that divinity, wouldn't that make us divine beings who do all those things? How does that fit?

Not flaming I'm honestly asking.
Nature itself, as a whole. We are of nature and have no control over it, even when it looks like we do. We are a product of nature. Just as, which you believe, we are the product of God's ideas. This does not make us God though.
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:37 PM #243
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If nature is the divinity, and we are a part of that divinity, wouldn't that make us divine beings who do all those things?
No. I can't even try to stretch or force that into being a logical conclusion.
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:39 PM #244
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No. I can't even try to stretch or force that into being a logical conclusion.
I tried....

I hate philosophy now. Absolutely am disgusted with it. This could also be because my anxiety is through the roof.
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:51 PM #245
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Nature itself, as a whole. We are of nature and have no control over it, even when it looks like we do. We are a product of nature. Just as, which you believe, we are the product of God's ideas. This does not make us God though.
Actually I can buy that.
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:59 PM #246
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If nature is the divinity, and we are a part of that divinity, wouldn't that make us divine beings who do all those things? How does that fit?
So, are you proposing here the idea from scripture that nature from the very beginning of time -- is and has always been the one true miracle all along?
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Old 08-01-2009, 05:07 PM #247
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So, are you proposing here the idea from scripture that nature from the very beginning of time -- is and has always been the one true miracle all along?
No I think I was stumbling over the word "being" that Beak used though he italicized it. Applying the word to us, it wasn't making sense.
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Old 08-01-2009, 05:16 PM #248
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No I think I was stumbling over the word "being" that Beak used though he italicized it. Applying the word to us, it wasn't making sense.
I said:

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[Nature] is perfect, not a divine being or character who makes decisions, casts judgment, experiences emotions, etc.

Where's the confusion and where did I say that we are divine "beings"?
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Old 08-01-2009, 05:22 PM #249
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Where's the confusion and where did I say that we are divine "beings"?
Will the response matter?
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