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Old 06-04-2009, 09:10 PM #1
DRE2
David Evans
 
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TechT L6 Drop off PLEASE HELP

my (origional) ion is dropping off at high rates of fire and i don't know how to fix it. im shooting an L6 bolt with a NDZ firing can with a QEV and a CP reg (virtue board). I already tried raising the dwell to 19 and it was still dropping off. I hear that with an L6 bolt and a QEV that i should be able to have my dwell around 13 or lower. i dont know what to do and im considering getting an L7 bolt because that all i can think of to fix it.
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:18 PM #2
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Tried a new battery?
If that dosent work, clean and lube your bolt and reg.
If that dosent work, bump up your dwell again.
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:18 PM #3
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13 would be way too low of a dwell setting with an L6.

You need to replace the battery with a brand new one, and set your dwell like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolder View Post
How to set Dwell

  1. Pressurize your Ion at whatever input pressure you wish to use. We suggest between 150-180 psi, depending on the internals. The following steps involve you dry-firing the marker (firing it without paint).
  2. Lower the dwell setting to the minimum (or an extremely low setting, such as 5 blinks with the stock board, or 8 milliseconds with an aftermarket board).
  3. Gradually increase dwell until the marker begins to fully cycle. When the marker has trouble cycling, the sound of the bolt firing will be muffled and sound erratic, denoting inconsistencies. When you reach the point where it fully cycles, the marker will make a loud POP for each shot you take, with minimal sound difference between the shots.
  4. Once the Ion is fully cycling, increase the dwell another 4-6 blinks (2-3 milliseconds with aftermarket board), and that will be your dwell setting.
It really doesn't matter how low you can get it, as long as it works properly.
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:27 PM #4
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yes i replaced the battery and cleaned out and re-lubed up my ion. and 13 shouldn't be too low for an L6, in fact it should be about perfect especially considering i have a qev. what i am concerned about is if the NDZ firing can has a different internal volume then the stock because that would affect the firing cycle.

keep in mind it isnt dropping off until im shooting at a high rof (+20bps-ish) so that might be a problem with a slow recharge rate for thoes rates of fire but the CP reg should be able to keep up right?

and does anyone think that an L7 would fix the problem because they can cycle at lower dwells due to their weight
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:28 PM #5
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Depends on what kind of lube you are using on the reg.
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:38 PM #6
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Honestly, it doesn't matter if you think 13 isn't too low for an L6. The fact is that every marker operates differently. So, if you think 13 is fine, which it isn't if you have drop off, then your marker doesn't work the way you want it to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRE2 View Post

and does anyone think that an L7 would fix the problem because they can cycle at lower dwells due to their weight
This quote shows that you think too low of a dwell setting may be the problem.

Seems to me that you have your heart set on running your dwell at 13 ms regardless of what bolt you have to buy to achieve it.

The L6 is substantially heavier than an L7 or HP. 13 ms with a QEV would be fine for a bolt as light at the L7 or HP. For the L6 you're probably looking at about 18 ms, or somewhere around there.
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:53 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spug View Post
The L6 is substantially heavier than an L7 or HP. 13 ms with a QEV would be fine for a bolt as light at the L7 or HP. For the L6 you're probably looking at about 18 ms, or somewhere around there.


13 is what the ion owners thread said should work with an L6. (if you think you know better then a form full of ion owners then i'll send my gun to you and you can fix it) and as i have said i have already upped my dwell as high as 19 and still had drop off at high rates of fire AGAIN THE GUN SHOOTS NORMALLY AT RATES OF FIRE UNDER 20bps-ish
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:57 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRE2 View Post
13 is what the ion owners thread said should work with an L6. (if you think you know better then a form full of ion owners then i'll send my gun to you and you can fix it) and as i have said i have already upped my dwell as high as 19 and still had drop off at high rates of fire AGAIN THE GUN SHOOTS NORMALLY AT RATES OF FIRE UNDER 20bps-ish
Each gun is different... Why do you need to shoot over 20 bps anyway? Maybe just stay at legal bps rates?
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:01 PM #9
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Originally Posted by Woodsballerpcb View Post
Each gun is different... Why do you need to shoot over 20 bps anyway? Maybe just stay at legal bps rates?
the gun should be able to do it and because it isnt, it must not be working perfectly.
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:06 PM #10
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Do it your way then, we have done what we need to. If you want to be stubborn about it then we cant make you do it...
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:07 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRE2 View Post
the gun should be able to do it and because it isnt, it must not be working perfectly.
This is where you have gone wrong young padawan.

Just because it "should" do it, doesn't mean it will. All Ion work differently. You can put an L6 and 360 QEV in one gun and have a dwell of 13, but you can put the same bolt and QEV in another ion and end up with a dwell of 21. that's just the way life is.

set the dwell properly and disregard what number you come up with. it doesn't matter how low or high it is, as long as it works consistently and is reasonably efficient.

Edit: Posting in all caps is considered yelling, there is no need to yell. I don't appreciate you yelling at me because you disagree with the facts.

Last edited by spug : 06-04-2009 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:43 PM #12
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i didnt know that caps would hurt peoples feelings...sorry

in any case, do you guys think that an L7 would help? (nobody has answered that question yet)
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:53 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRE2 View Post
my (origional) ion is dropping off at high rates of fire and i don't know how to fix it. i.
has it ever not dropped off at this ROF? can you think of something that you changed that would cause this? what is your input pressure? i would check the reg again and make sure it's not overlubed, maybe clean the solenoid too. And honestly, maybe you should just reset the board to see what happens, i mean, it can't hurt anything, maybe you set the recharge rate too low trying to achieve this ROF? i know one of mine did this when i was trying to tweak the highest ROF by adjusting dwell/recharge, i had to reset it to get consistent shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spug View Post
This is where you have gone wrong young padawan.
.

Obi Wan is droppin serious knowledge this evening.

My default dwell setting on one of my boards was actually too low to fire it w/out drop off, so even though the manufacturer had decided that 12ms was the perfect dwell, the gun decided it was not. so if a manufacturer can be wrong, then a whole forum can be just as misguided.

just a thought though.

edit: an L7 may just cause you more problems, get it to work first.
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Old 06-05-2009, 12:42 AM #14
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EDIT::: i actually is dropping off at bps's lower then 20... im not sure exactly what bps its dropping off at but it has a virtue board and its set to debounce 1 and it drops off in semi auto...i was kinda high earlier so i felt like saying 20 to be cool. it can do 20+ but then it really dropps off. and again, when shooting slower (1-13bps or so) , it cycles perfectly normal.

i already tried resetting the board to stock (its a virtue board) and it didn't fix it

my input pressure is around 100psi and its shooting a consistent 270ish

ask me any questions about the setup, i want to fix this
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Old 06-05-2009, 12:57 AM #15
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listen up spicoli:

put the pressure to 180 or so and see if that doesn't help. what tank are you using?

Has it ever worked properly before?

what is the default dwell when you reset it?
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:11 AM #16
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if i raise the pressure then that will raise the FPS so then i'll just have to lower it again to play......its at 100ish and its shooting a consistent 270ish

im using a hp crossfire 68/45, i can try using my cp tank to see if it has a higher recharge rate

as for it working before... i used it 2 years ago with a lp crossfire stubby and of corse it was dropping off then but i figured it was because of the lp tank. its been re lubed and is now shooting a hp tank and there is still a problem

again when shooting slower, it shoots straight with no drop off.

and thanks for showing some interest in helping willibe


i dont know where my virtue manual is and my computer wont read pdf's but here is the link for the manual and i think it says the default values for the settings

http://home.virtuepaintball.com/manuals/VirtueIon.pdf
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:15 AM #17
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welll turn the pressure up and the dwell down then, IMO you aren't getting enough air through it, and the low pressure is starving the marker. up it to 180, and just try it. forget about velocity right now, forget about numbers. then, if the velocity is too high, i believe you can adjust the dwell down to change it. so run it at 170-180, dwell at 19 or whatever, and try it then.
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:33 AM #18
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you cant really lower the velocity through the dwell, lowering the dwell would re**** in very very inconsistent velocities

i agree it dose seem like its being starved of air or the recharge rate is lower then it should be, however ive been told by every tech ive talked to that the numbers im running (dwell, reg pressure etc) should work, and they do, just not at higher rates of fire.

i'll try raising the pressure this weekend and the dwell while im at it and see if that fixes it but the gun is no good to me if it only operates correctly when shooting 300+ fps

recap on the setup: L6 bolt, NDZ firing can, CP reg, Crossfire HP tank, Virtue board, QEV (thats all i can think of that would effect the firing cycle that isnt stock)

i have a punishers frame as well (maybe the hole from the reg to the first banjo is really tiny or something)
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Old 06-05-2009, 02:23 AM #19
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to answer your wanted question the L7 won't help at all and throwing money at something not working right now isn't going to help matters at all but really follow the dwell stickies forget #'s raise your pressure a little and then try it you don't have to shoot people to see the drop off.....
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Old 06-05-2009, 06:19 AM #20
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Do you still have the stock firing can?

If you do, replace the stock can then follow dwell instructions above.

It's possible you got a bad can and it won't allow fast enough air flow for high rates of fire.

That's about all I can think of other than dwell and battery.
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Old 06-05-2009, 08:15 PM #21
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aw young stubborn child no1 can help if you don't take advice
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