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Old 05-11-2009, 04:21 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcfla2 View Post
...there is nothing wrong with establishments of religion in government....
How can you say that, when the First Amendment unequivocally states that there shall be no establishment of religion in government?
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"there are variables outside of physics that will affect the flight of the ball"
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:07 PM #23
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Originally Posted by mtcfla2 View Post
Ya but that only means that the government isn't supposed to regulate religion, it doesn't mean that religion shouldn't be taken in to account when making laws (most recently the gay marriage laws for example). Am I right?

Also, sounds like an interesting read. If it's any good let me know and I'll pick up a copy.
You're wrong Not trying to be a dick. In order to not favor one religion over another, religions should not be taken into account. Rather, issues of the state should - taxes, next of kin, dependent, etc etc.

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I guess the question I meant to pose in this thread is one of the founders intentions when setting up our nation. I am beginning to believe that they were all for religious principals being accepted in the government when making laws, and actually encouraged it, but that the government now seems to be doing everything they can to counter the 'religious' (mainly christian) by banning anything with religious values for the sake of political correctness. Up until just recently we considered ourselves a judeo-christian nation (recently being before Obama, he just said something that many realized for a long time. I don't hold anything against him for saying what he did) and have prospered, arguably because of that foundation.

The phrase 'separation of church and state' as I have heard was taken from a letter from Thomas Jefferson in regards to a church about setting up a state mandated denomination. He didn't say it to mean that Christians should leave their Bible at the door, so to speak. I could be wrong, but that's why I opened this thread, I was hoping someone knew more about this than I do and can help me learn

One reason I want to know if that book is worth reading or just some more Michael Moore type propaganda.
I posted in another thread a while back about the religious backgrounds and practices of the US's founding fathers. The core group were deists (if I can spell it correctly). The laws we started with were based on Common Law.

You are correct in thinking that the founding fathers encouraged religious belief. There was a letter from GW that talked about it specifically, but I can't find it right now.

Political correctness is a slap in the face.

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What do you mean by "religious principles"? Obviously politicians are going to make decisions that are influenced by their morals and religious beliefs. Laws against gay marriage or abortion are not establishments of religion in government. Public school-directed prayer or engraving the 10 commandments on a courthouse wall, on the other hand, are.
Spock, I like you. That being said, the bolded part of your statement leans heavily towards taking a religious principal and instituting it into government. And this is coming from a Catholic. The act of marriage in this particular case is being looked at through religious glasses, as apposed to secular.
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Last edited by barrel roll : 05-11-2009 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:10 PM #24
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What about the Grand Church of Lord Obama? Where's the Establishment clause at now?
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:17 PM #25
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Spock, I like you. That being said, the italicized part of your statement leans heavily towards taking a religious principal and instituting it into government. And this is coming from a Catholic. The act of marriage in this particular case is being looked at through religious glasses, as apposed to secular.
I agree with you 100%, and anyone who tells you they oppose gay marriage from some "non-religious" reason is either lying or stupid or both.

However, the Constitution does not prohibit lawmakers from looking "through religious glasses." It prohibits them from making laws that respect the establishment of religion. While I agree that banning gay marriage is right on the borderline, since there's no rational non-religious justification for it, marriage and sexuality are not inherently religious things. They exist both in and out of religion, and always have. Sure, religions have plenty to say about them. But they also have plenty to say about theft, murder, work, taxes, and food, all of which are regulated by the government with no consideration that such regulations might effect an establishment of religion.
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Originally posted by matt00iconoclast:
"there are variables outside of physics that will affect the flight of the ball"

Last edited by Spock : 05-11-2009 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:26 PM #26
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I agree with you 100%, and anyone who tells you they oppose gay marriage from some "non-religious" reason is either lying or stupid or both.

However, the Constitution does not prohibit lawmakers from looking "through religious glasses." It prohibits them from making laws that respect the establishment of religion. While I agree that banning gay marriage is right on the borderline, since there's no rational non-religious justification for it, marriage and sexuality are not inherently religious things. They exist both in and out of religion, and always have. Sure, religions have plenty to say about them. But they also have plenty to say about theft, murder, work, taxes, and food, all of which are regulated by the government with no consideration that such regulations might effect an establishment of religion.
Maybe we could get some homos to create a religion that only recognizes homosexual marriage... then fight it that way? You know... trying to think outside the box and get the system to work the right way. Then again... the Mormons and polygamy...
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Last edited by barrel roll : 05-11-2009 at 05:28 PM. Reason: contemplating deletion of this post
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:30 PM #27
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Maybe we could get some homos to create a religion that only recognizes homosexual marriage... then fight it that way? You know... trying to think outside the box and get the system to work the right way. Then again... the Mormons and polygamy...
Yeah, I tried joining the Native American Church just so I could smoke peyote. Didn't work out so well.
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Originally posted by matt00iconoclast:
"there are variables outside of physics that will affect the flight of the ball"
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:25 PM #28
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there is nothing wrong with establishments of religion in government,
Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition?
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:50 PM #29
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I think politicians should abandon their religious beliefs while writing, introducing, and voting on bills. Using abortion as an example, Christians are dead opposed to it for any reason. But in some cases it's really not the worst solution. What if a 7 year old girl is raped and becomes pregnant? Is it really in her best interest to carry to term and give birth or would performing an abortion be more correct? IMO, if you advocate forcing a preteen child to give birth after being raped by some sicko, you are completely ****ing insane. If you aren't able to separate your religious beliefs from whats best for the child, you should rethink why your in office to begin with. Is it to be a missionary and force your viewpoint upon others or do whats in the populations best interest?
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:06 PM #30
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Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition?
ever heard of stalin hitler and mao. they all killed people, too.
there are going to be crazy killers no matter what. yes one was through religion but the other three werent.

Point: The fact that the creator was crazy has nothing to do with the religion being crazy. Just because someone kills people for a "religious cause" doesn't mean that religion was the cause.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:12 PM #31
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I think politicians should abandon their religious beliefs while writing, introducing, and voting on bills. Using abortion as an example, Christians are dead opposed to it for any reason. But in some cases it's really not the worst solution. What if a 7 year old girl is raped and becomes pregnant? Is it really in her best interest to carry to term and give birth or would performing an abortion be more correct? IMO, if you advocate forcing a preteen child to give birth after being raped by some sicko, you are completely ****ing insane. If you aren't able to separate your religious beliefs from whats best for the child, you should rethink why your in office to begin with. Is it to be a missionary and force your viewpoint upon others or do whats in the populations best interest?
People have morals. They use those morals to make descisions. Those descisions affect peoples lives.

Some people choose to take their morals from their religion, and some choose to just do what they think is right.

There is no "correct" set of morals. There is no "right" or "wrong". There is no way to say that one persons set of morals are more just than anothers. It's all based on opinion. Since all morals are based on opinion, all descisions are made by an opinion on what is "right" and "wrong".

Why are you allowed to make descisions by your "made-up" morals and I am not allowed to make descisions by my "religious" morals?
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:21 PM #32
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My point is that, according to the constitution and our founding documents, there is nothing wrong with establishments of religion in government, only that government should not control the church.
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How can you say that, when the First Amendment unequivocally states that there shall be no establishment of religion in government?
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Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition?
lol maybe quoting the whole sentence will clarify my meaning a little

Spock - what part of the first amendment are you talking about? The only quotes that I have seen from the first amendment that people use to defend this position say basically that the government cannot control the church. I know right now you're probably cursing my name for saying that, but consider I'm hard-headed and use small words for me

DarkTamer - read the quote again. It's all about context...like the difference between 'I helped my Uncle Jack off the horse' and 'I helped my uncle jack off the horse'
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:34 PM #33
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People have morals. They use those morals to make descisions. Those descisions affect peoples lives.

Some people choose to take their morals from their religion, and some choose to just do what they think is right.

There is no "correct" set of morals. There is no "right" or "wrong". There is no way to say that one persons set of morals are more just than anothers. It's all based on opinion. Since all morals are based on opinion, all descisions are made by an opinion on what is "right" and "wrong".

Why are you allowed to make descisions by your "made-up" morals and I am not allowed to make descisions by my "religious" morals?
The bold part of your quote sums it up quite nicely due to the fact that religious people themselves struggle at times to justify the messages they are fed.

If even religious people themselves can't see the point of their own ideas or understand why they are "right" at times, how do you think others see them? Yet they still have no reservation in attempting to force them upon others.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:36 PM #34
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The bold part of your quote sums it up quite nicely due to the fact that religious people themselves struggle at times to justify the messages they are fed.

If even religious people themselves can't see the point of their own ideas or understand why they are "right" at times, how do you think others see them? Yet they still have no reservation in attempting to force them upon others.
I am glad that my faith does not pressure anyone to join, you come under your own free will without harassment or guilt trips.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:42 PM #35
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I am glad that my faith does not pressure anyone to join, you come under your own free will without harassment or guilt trips.
While that is great for you, its most definitely not always the case.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:44 PM #36
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While that is great for you, its most definitely not always the case.
Oh I know that for a fact, I have a couple restraining orders on people who represent various religious sects. I got a Jehovah's Witness couple arrested for trespassing at my old house when I told them to leave my property and they refused so I called the police and had them taken away.

I'm all for freedom of religion, however that doesn't give anyone the excuse to harass others in the name of religion.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:46 PM #37
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I got a Jehovah's Witness couple arrested for trespassing at my old house when I told them to leave my property and they refused so I called the police and had them taken away.
LMAO. Best post I've seen all day. If only you had video...
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:49 PM #38
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LMAO. Best post I've seen all day. If only you had video...
The police cruiser had a camera, but I don't have access to the tapes. They didn't resist, however they refused to leave on their own accord. I didn't want to have them arrested, but they forced my hand when the lady started screaming at me... she was, unstable, at best.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:55 PM #39
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The police cruiser had a camera, but I don't have access to the tapes. They didn't resist, however they refused to leave on their own accord. I didn't want to have them arrested, but they forced my hand when the lady started screaming at me... she was, unstable, at best.
Makes you wonder how many of these type people actually read the Bible they claim to stand up for.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:58 PM #40
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Makes you wonder how many of these type people actually read the Bible they claim to stand up for.
Makes me want to answer the door naked and invite them inside for a 'romp around' just to see their faces...
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Old 05-11-2009, 08:00 PM #41
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Makes me want to answer the door and invite them inside for a 'romp around' just to see their faces...
lol I'd be careful, you might be surprised at the answer.

'I was really trying to convert him so it's ok'
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Old 05-11-2009, 08:04 PM #42
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lol I'd be careful, you might be surprised at the answer.

'I was really trying to convert him so it's ok'
haha, oh God...
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