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Old 05-11-2009, 04:53 PM #64
SuperSupra619 (Banned)
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Originally Posted by Underfunded View Post
"Cleaned up" indeed...

Your ideas are flawed. No one will ever go along with the idea that we should turn the border into a war zone, because after that is done and the borders are "safe", what's stopping you from doing the same to the cities, and to the towns, and to the entire nation?

We have things such as speed limits because people want them. You're ideas are your own, and should not and cannot be applied across the board without the people democratically choosing to enact them. And I seriously doubt half of what you want to do would get done if left up to the people.
Almost everything he said he would do is 100% illogical and ignorant of the workings of the world.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:54 PM #65
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the only problem i have with this is the fact that you are trying to do this with government money (fixing Americas problems). for a self proclaimed libertarian this is far out of line with that ideology.

what i believe needs to be done:
  1. pull our troops home
  2. stop aiding other nations with government funds, allow private humanitarian aid.
  3. do not support/damn forigen governments for our own interests
  4. legalize and tax most drugs, but regulate where they can be used
  5. remove most anti-gun legislation, but keep background checks and enforce those

thats all i can think of right now.
That's the big one. Do that and watch America's foreign problems go down the drain.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:54 PM #66
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To be fair, Overbear is anything but ignorant. He is a radical idealist, and not in the way i'm comfortable with, but the man knows what he wants and why he wants them.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:55 PM #67
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Originally Posted by 239baller View Post
the only problem i have with this is the fact that you are trying to do this with government money (fixing Americas problems). for a self proclaimed libertarian this is far out of line with that ideology.

what i believe needs to be done:
  1. pull our troops home
  2. stop aiding other nations with government funds, allow private humanitarian aid.
  3. do not support/damn forigen governments for our own interests
  4. legalize and tax most drugs, but regulate where they can be used
  5. remove most anti-gun legislation, but keep background checks and enforce those

thats all i can think of right now.
Thats were I break with the libertarian line. I view goverment as there to HELP its people, therefor things like taxes should be used to help the ones who need help at that time. Hence my points about education, health, and welfare reform.

On top of it, after a 8-10 year period, taxes could be cut because you have more people in the work force, making more money, therefor taxes get cut to maintain the same level.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:56 PM #68
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That's the big one. Do that and watch America's foreign problems go down the drain.
pretty much... if only we did this back in the 70's and 80's
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:57 PM #69
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the only problem i have with this is the fact that you are trying to do this with government money (fixing Americas problems). for a self proclaimed libertarian this is far out of line with that ideology.

what i believe needs to be done:
  1. pull our troops home
  2. stop aiding other nations with government funds, allow private humanitarian aid.
  3. do not support/damn forigen governments for our own interests
  4. legalize and tax most drugs, but regulate where they can be used
  5. remove most anti-gun legislation, but keep background checks and enforce those

thats all i can think of right now.
Most "libertarian" ideas are anti-liberty as it were. For instance, what sort of libertarian supports such a strong armed border patrol? "Liberty", in it's most basic, is defined as "the condition in which an individual has the right to act according to his or her own will." To deny any individual the right to travel across the world is to deny liberty.

Yet, this idea is all too common among the "Libertarians" we have of today.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:58 PM #70
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To be fair, Overbear is anything but ignorant. He is a radical idealist, and not in the way i'm comfortable with, but the man knows what he wants and why he wants them.
He may know what he wants, and although it may be fun to think about your "ideal world", progress can only be made if you deal with situations in an educated, logical manner that deals with all the variables that will come into play. We just had a president who many would consider an idealist and look how that turned out.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:59 PM #71
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I don't think many would consider Bush an idealist, sorry.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:59 PM #72
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To be fair, Overbear is anything but ignorant. He is a radical idealist, and not in the way i'm comfortable with, but the man knows what he wants and why he wants them.
Anyone who thinks that he holds the key to extraordinary job creation without nationalizing the economy or enacting protectionism is in a fantasy world.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:00 PM #73
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Most "libertarian" ideas are anti-liberty as it were. For instance, what sort of libertarian supports such a strong armed border patrol? "Liberty", in it's most basic, is defined as "the condition in which an individual has the right to act according to his or her own will." To deny any individual the right to travel across the world is to deny liberty.

Yet, this idea is all too common among the "Libertarians" we have of today.
Those citizens more than likely aren't citizens of the country and should be entering the country legally.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:00 PM #74
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What part of radical idealist didn't make sense to you?
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:01 PM #75
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He may know what he wants, and although it may be fun to think about your "ideal world", progress can only be made if you deal with situations in an educated, logical manner that deals with all the variables that will come into play. We just had a president who many would consider an idealist and look how that turned out.
Bush was anything but an idealist. He ignored domestic problems, and all they did was get worse and worse.

Thats the big problem, we need to work on OUR problems, and stop trying to fix the world. Keep our money here, our troops here, and our production here, the US was once the #1 industrial country in the world. We could again be #1 in technology, and farming (to be fair we are #1 in rice export in the world), we just need to apply our massive resources to the right key points.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:01 PM #76
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On top of it, after a 8-10 year period, taxes could be cut because you have more people in the work force, making more money, therefor taxes get cut to maintain the same level.
the work force is not where real money is made, it is where people are kept under the boot of government taxes and big business. what we need to do is do away with public educations systems in favor for private/charter schools that will teach people how to break from conventional wisdom of working 40 hours a week and getting paid by the hour.

i think we should give every kid the chance to read robert kiyosaki's book 'ritch dad poor dad'

granted we do need a work force, but building that to be larger will not help the true wealth of the nation.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:03 PM #77
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I don't think many would consider Bush an idealist, sorry.
Calling him an idealist was the wrong way to put it, I was trying to say he made decisions on what he wants/feels is the right thing to do, regardless of the problems it would create. Basically he overlooked the reality of the situation and made poor decisions which only made things worse.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:05 PM #78
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FYI: Overbear and I have a long history of hating each other, so don't take me defending him as agreeing with him.

That being said, your arguments need to be better informed to tackle what he is saying to you. You'll be a better person in the end.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:06 PM #79
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Those citizens more than likely aren't citizens of the country and should be entering the country legally.
"Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it." -
-- Abraham Lincoln

Lincoln, in this case, was talking about slaves, slaves who were not citizens then either. Entering the country legally is not always possible thanks to our entangling, protectionist system of work visas.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:06 PM #80
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Most "libertarian" ideas are anti-liberty as it were. For instance, what sort of libertarian supports such a strong armed border patrol? "Liberty", in it's most basic, is defined as "the condition in which an individual has the right to act according to his or her own will." To deny any individual the right to travel across the world is to deny liberty.

Yet, this idea is all too common among the "Libertarians" we have of today.
i think i would need to further explain my ideas on immigration reform before you go on with your traditional knee jerk reaction.

i support boarder fences, but i also support open border check points to cut down on illegal immigration and smuggling. also it is a good way to keep criminals out of our country, as well as diseases
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:09 PM #81
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i support boarder fences, but i also support open border check points to cut down on illegal immigration and smuggling.
"Open" as in people can come and go as they please and stay as long as they please, or are there strings attached?
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:11 PM #82
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come and go as you please as long you are of good health and legal standing in your own country.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:34 PM #83
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FYI: Overbear and I have a long history of hating each other, so don't take me defending him as agreeing with him.

That being said, your arguments need to be better informed to tackle what he is saying to you. You'll be a better person in the end.
I understand what he is saying to me, but the views he has for this country are not logical, plain and simple. Anyone can say they will "close down borders totally", this is clearly not a feasible idea. Completely cutting ourselves out of the UN, again, not something that can be done automatically with the push of a button. How will this affect the rest of countries still in the United Nations? Who will fill our spot for veto power? Will the US still be bounded by UN international law? What about our interests and assets in the world bank? The US is the single largest beneficiary to the UN, without its funding, the UN will be worthless. If there is no UN, who will regulate international relations? What about regulation of Atomic energy? Completely isolating ourselves from the world. Again, what economic/social/political impact will this have on other countries?

The US is too tied up in tons of **** to just say "yup, I'm president now, were gonna shut down all our borders and gtfo of the UN." There are far to many variables, far to many unknowns to do something like this.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:37 PM #84
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I love the fact the peanut gallery here keeps going "overbear your insane, your ideas suck!" but you have yet to offer up a comprehensive and thought out solution as I have offered. Is it perfect, nope, but would it benefit the most people with the least amount of impact on US citizens, yes.

We do not owe it to any other citizens in the world to "take care of them" only our own citizens. The rest of the world can take care of their own people, and deal with their own problems.
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