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Old 04-02-2009, 03:56 PM #43
generalee72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insomnia365 View Post
.......Quit being money hungry and sell it to make a responsible profit, not to steal a shirt from a guy who isnt even wearing one.
Nobody is stealing anything, if you can't afford something you either save enough to buy it, buy it somewhere else that is cheaper, or don't buy it. It is not a businesses responsibility to make sure everyone can afford their product or service. This is a recreational sport, not some life necessity that is being withheld.

Quote:
edit: And that only reason field and store owner are encouraging other new and upcoming fields to do the same as far as cost is so that competition doesnt come into play (for those of you who understand economics) thus allowing them to maintain the rediculous cost of the paint.
This might be hard for many people to understand ,but generally the only group of posters in here that are not doing so in a self-serving capacity are the owners. I have not seen many informative posts from any of the established owners that wasn't intended to do anything except help the person it was directed at. The only reason they promote keeping prices higher is that they, unlike most posters, know what they are talking about and know that price wars are the death of business. Competition is great for business, but businesses should compete with quality of products/services, and value of products/services, not price.

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Originally Posted by A.Tech View Post
I am already liking your opinion on this. BYOP FTW. IMHO. IT si FPO fields that cause paintball to die. I know these guys need to pay their bills too, but I bet you will bring more customers in a BYOP field anytime. Plus people do like to buy their own favorite brand. Just set rules that are not allowed like MonsterBall by Brass Eagle.
I too find this to be interesting. I would be willing to bet that if somebody did real research with real numbers you would find an interesting, albeit not surprising to owners, correlation between the increase in BYOP facilities and the decline of paintball.

So instead lets call it like it is, lets be honest. In your opinion you feel BYOP is better, but that because it's better for players, it's cheaper for players. BYOP will attract more players, tourney type players, but owners need to ask themselves if that's what they want. If you want tourney guys then BYOP is one of the best first steps to take.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Tech View Post
Over here I can name 2 businesses that already went out and they were FPO.

Paying $85 bucks for a few hours of play for paint that is mediocre or sucky is just not fun in these tough times. I know you guys have big bills, I am not doubting that, running a business sucks sometimes, My family used to run a store for 10years, until we just couldn't do it anymore because they had 2nd jobs to support the store.
That's where the value comes into play.

If you suck enough it doesn't matter how cheap it is, you will fail.
But if your prices match your value, you have a much better chance at survival.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:59 PM #44
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At my local field they have byop, but only on certain days and instead of $15 for entrance and air, it is $30. Another good idea, from the same field, is to have a "special" night.
for example, this field normally charges i believe $65 for a case of paint and $15 for air and entry, but on Thursdays, it is $40 for a case AND air/entry.
I like that idea^ If you were stict FPO field and you have speical times for that. MY field does that for their indoor field on sundays but for teams only rotations and for xball. For $65 case with entry/air.

owners could do that or they could charge a little small extra fee for BYOP, which mine fields charge $10 BtW. So it is $30 then bring ur own paint. OR sell paint there AT Map prices. And only use their paint but have a choice with all the best brands at Map pricing. Not Procraps are 2x the price.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:14 PM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Tech View Post
Over here I can name 2 businesses that already went out and they were FPO.

Paying $85 bucks for a few hours of play for paint that is mediocre or sucky is just not fun in these tough times. I know you guys have big bills, I am not doubting that, running a business sucks sometimes, My family used to run a store for 10years, until we just couldn't do it anymore because they had 2nd jobs to support the store.
I do not have FPO and charge (relatively) high paint prices because of high bills. I charge the higher prices becasue it promotes an environment that attracts more new players. As a field owner, I need a constant influx of new players to sustain my business. BYOP (or low cost FPO) works against that trend for me by reducing the number of new players. It doesn't even substantially increase the number of established players over the long haul and established players are always leaving the game, so they need to be replaced with new players. This is the biggest problem plagueing the industry in the last few years (not enough new players to replace those leaving). Personallly we are not affected by that, but many are, and BYOP (or low cost FPO) are the biggest factor in that. It's actually not that difficult of a concept to grasp, but when most of the "vocal" participants in the industry can't see past the end of their own noses, and only look at it from their own personal point of view (I want to get as much paint as i can for my money), people get a slanted view of what's really happening.

Choosing FPO has very little to do with my business' overhead. It has everything to do with the growth I want my business to achieve.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:31 PM #46
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:35 PM #47
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This is just a thought, I know back a few years ago the field I worked/played at offered 2 sessions. a morning from like 8am to noon and an afternoon session from 1pm to 5pm. We encouraged players to stay and play all day by offering discounts on paint and air if they paid for both sessions. If they brought there own paint we also offered a discount on the session fees and BYOP Fees knowing they'd usually run out of paint before the end of the day and buy field paint to finish the day. We also made it a point to bring some store stock out to the field and offer byop players the chance to buy more paint of their choice on site.
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:57 PM #48
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
I do not have FPO and charge (relatively) high paint prices because of high bills. I charge the higher prices becasue it promotes an environment that attracts more new players. As a field owner, I need a constant influx of new players to sustain my business. BYOP (or low cost FPO) works against that trend for me by reducing the number of new players. It doesn't even substantially increase the number of established players over the long haul and established players are always leaving the game, so they need to be replaced with new players. This is the biggest problem plagueing the industry in the last few years (not enough new players to replace those leaving). Personallly we are not affected by that, but many are, and BYOP (or low cost FPO) are the biggest factor in that. It's actually not that difficult of a concept to grasp, but when most of the "vocal" participants in the industry can't see past the end of their own noses, and only look at it from their own personal point of view (I want to get as much paint as i can for my money), people get a slanted view of what's really happening.

Choosing FPO has very little to do with my business' overhead. It has everything to do with the growth I want my business to achieve.

What do you mean? Attracting new players? How would higher prices attract more people? especially in this recession? I am assuming Canada is not doing so hot either, Probably not as bad as us, but still not great. Do you mean by providing better equipment, land and Events? MY place has a pro come down(Greg Hastings) a few times a year and charges $100 bucks for him which includes a case of paint, entry/air.

And also, Why do you think the Veteran players are leaving? IT is true that the renters do support the field better then us vets but the thing is... It is because we have all our own gear. The only reason why the support better is because of the overwhelming Rental charges as well as group party charges.
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Old 04-02-2009, 07:17 PM #49
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Originally Posted by A.Tech View Post
What do you mean? I thought he stated it plainly enough. Attracting new players? Yep... that's what any sucessfull field wants to do. How would higher prices attract more people? You didn't pay attention. Players at Horizons field pay about the same as any other field for a day of play. They just shoot less paint. especially in this recession? Always, not just in a recession. It's about value, not cost. I am assuming Canada is not doing so hot either, Probably not as bad as us, but still not great. Mostly correct. Most of the planet is not doing so great right now. Do you mean by providing better equipment, land and Events? By providing a better value and more of what the customer really wants... fun. MY place has a pro come down(Greg Hastings) a few times a year and charges $100 bucks for him which includes a case of paint, entry/air. Groovy.

And also, Why do you think the Veteran players are leaving? They move on to other things. Such is life. People are fickle and their interests change. IT is true that the renters do support the field better then us vets You betcha. but the thing is... It is because we have all our own gear. Eh... I guess that is part of it. The only reason why the support better is because of the overwhelming Rental charges as well as group party charges. I would rather have a party of 10 than have 20 experienced walkons with their own equipment any day.
Owwww! Your hurting my head! Are we really going through this again???
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Old 04-02-2009, 07:24 PM #50
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Owwww! Your hurting my head! Are we really going through this again???
Oh, come on Dan, you should have known the stove was hot, you're just burning your own hand........again and again. But we love you for it.

This is kinda the pot calling the kettle stainless steel. (people don't use black anymore, SS is all the rage)
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Old 04-02-2009, 07:27 PM #51
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Owwww! Your hurting my head! Are we really going through this again???
There are what, about 5 million paintball players. We need to teach them one at a time, so about another 4,999,947 to go.
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:31 PM #52
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Originally Posted by Insomnia365 View Post
**** that man, thats the United State (and others) form of economy to break the citizen in order to get richer and richer. Im not exactly sure on what overhead in Dubai is, but really... 300 for a case of paint? And whats it cost for production? Exactly, enough said.

Quit being money hungry and sell it to make a responsible profit, not to steal a shirt from a guy who isnt even wearing one.

edit: And that only reason field and store owner are encouraging other new and upcoming fields to do the same as far as cost is so that competition doesnt come into play (for those of you who understand economics) thus allowing them to maintain the rediculous cost of the paint.
You Sir (term used very loosely) are an idiot and have no clue about the World Economy and the cost of living outside of your mother's basement.
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:58 PM #53
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Hmm... Suppose maybe if you do have a BYOP Field. You probably would get more customers than the FPO. But I suppose you try first with having a FPO field but say your only open Saturdays and Sundays. There have Saturday a FPO Day. Sunday BYOP Day. That way you can experiment on which would bring in the most customers.
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:17 PM #54
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I love to eat. I am very good at it and have been eating competitively for years. I eat out almost every night. I especially like steak. Medium Rare FTW!

If you are opening a Restaurant you will get a lot more customers if you allow BYOB (Bring Your Own BEEF). I can get a nice Ribeye at the grocery for less than half what it costs at a steakjoint. What a ripoff!

If you make a very nice place with a great atmosphere (I like a good band playing while I eat) and allow me to bring my own booze too... then I would come to your place every day. You would make a fortune taking care of me and all my friends.

Oh... and don't charge more than a few dollars for a cover because there is a place near me that lets me in for free sometimes.
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Old 04-02-2009, 11:17 PM #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
I love to eat. I am very good at it and have been eating competitively for years. I eat out almost every night. I especially like steak. Medium Rare FTW!

If you are opening a Restaurant you will get a lot more customers if you allow BYOB (Bring Your Own BEEF). I can get a nice Ribeye at the grocery for less than half what it costs at a steakjoint. What a ripoff!

If you make a very nice place with a great atmosphere (I like a good band playing while I eat) and allow me to bring my own booze too... then I would come to your place every day. You would make a fortune taking care of me and all my friends.

Oh... and don't charge more than a few dollars for a cover because there is a place near me that lets me in for free sometimes.
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:36 AM #56
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Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
If you make a very nice place with a great atmosphere (I like a good band playing while I eat) and allow me to bring my own booze too... then I would come to your place every day. You would make a fortune taking care of me and all my friends.

Oh... and don't charge more than a few dollars for a cover because there is a place near me that lets me in for free sometimes.

In some states / dry counties you have to bring your own booze and its a lot of fun.
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:41 AM #57
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Honestly the big key to FPO and BYOP is what does your field offer no one else does?

SC Village - have you seen the place? They offer stuff that was unheard of years ago and some places yearn for today. How do they do it, they used to have some high entry fee and FPO. It allows them to finace the park.

I have also been on BYOP fields that are nothing but old pallets set in gullies.

Though both can be fun, if I am the casual rec player, I want to go to the cool looking place, and who cares if I have to buy a case and split it with friends.

The people who tend to really ***** about FPO vs BYOP are people who either should take up another sport because they can't afford paintball or waste to omuch paint because they have not learned that an aimed shot is worth more then spray and pray...

If you are in an area that has 100% rec players, do a FPO field. Build the best field you can with the proceeds then after a few dozen years (Like SC Village did) drop your door fee and your paint fee and enjoy the years of work.
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Old 04-03-2009, 01:02 AM #58
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If you are in an area that has 100% rec players, do a FPO field. Build the best field you can with the proceeds then after a few dozen years (Like SC Village did) drop your door fee and your paint fee and enjoy the years of work.
I've got to ask, why did they have to drop their door and paint prices to enjoy their years of work?
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:06 PM #59
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Essentially what I get from this post is this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by generalee72 View Post
Nobody is stealing anything, if you can't afford something you either save enough to buy it, buy it somewhere else that is cheaper, or don't buy it. It is not a businesses responsibility to make sure everyone can afford their product or service. This is a recreational sport, not some life necessity that is being withheld.
It may not be the responsibility to make sure everyone can afford to play, I get that... for me that would be maybe $100 for a day of play... but $300, that's a little ridiculous and even you can admit that, and if you don't, I like to know why you feel the way you do. Perhaps I'm a little Marxist in my thinking simply because I don't believe money should stop someone from perusing their dreams or living their life to the fullest.




This might be hard for many people to understand ,but generally the only group of posters in here that are not doing so in a self-serving capacity are the owners. I have not seen many informative posts from any of the established owners that wasn't intended to do anything except help the person it was directed at. The only reason they promote keeping prices higher is that they, unlike most posters, know what they are talking about and know that price wars are the death of business. Competition is great for business, but businesses should compete with quality of products/services, and value of products/services, not price.
I didn't realize making a 200% profit from the fields charging $300 a case was really causing the death of a business. Perhaps what you meant was someone that charges a reasonable amount for a case of paint would cause havoc to the money hungry business owners that feel the need or whatever the case may be to charge $300 per case. Competition for a business doesn't only need to be in how much they charge, I agree field owners should take the time to get that 1 on 1 relationship with the customers they serve and the teams they promote, that is how the sport grows. However you cant deny or honestly defend charging $300 per case what it takes what maybe $35 to make?
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:50 PM #60
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I suspect a few of you guys have forgotten the fact that this field is going to be in DUBAI. This is an area with an indoor ski resort and man made, palm tree shaped islands. It's a small area that has been rapidly expanding, which puts land at a premium. Any field that opens has to cover the costs of the super expensive land the field will be on, in addition to the normal costs of opening a field. All that in addition to the cost of importing paint and other equipment.

Even if they used the least expensive paint they could find (which they won't because at $300 for a case, people will want quality) they have to sell it at a price that, combined with their entry and rental fees, will cover their high operating costs.

It's the same reason why it's more expensive to play around New York than it is in rural Virginia.

Fortunately, most of us won't be in Dubai too often, so what they charge at fields over there is really a moot point.
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:54 PM #61
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I didn't realize making a 200% profit from the fields charging $300 a case was really causing the death of a business. Perhaps what you meant was someone that charges a reasonable amount for a case of paint would cause havoc to the money hungry business owners that feel the need or whatever the case may be to charge $300 per case. Competition for a business doesn't only need to be in how much they charge, I agree field owners should take the time to get that 1 on 1 relationship with the customers they serve and the teams they promote, that is how the sport grows. However you cant deny or honestly defend charging $300 per case what it takes what maybe $35 to make?
First... How much it cost to produce a product has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how much it sells for ESPECIALLY when that item is used for ENTERTAINMENT.

Second... Do you have any idea how much things cost in Dubai? Do you know that the only other field in Dubai charges 850 a case or 60 per 100?
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:58 PM #62
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What you charge per case is really up to you. Part of your decision relies on your location. Consider some of the following things:

-Average income of the people in the area of your field
-Number of teams compared to number of recreational player
-Liability/Insurance laws in your area
-Overhead

-If your business is in a pretty wealthy area, you may have a higher overhead and you may need to charge more to keep the field going. Luckily the people around you should be able to afford the high prices, so you should be ok.
-Are there a lot of teams or is it mostly recreational players? Are you going to cater to rec players AND tournament players? If you have a mostly-team oriented field, you could get away with allowing BYOP for a small fee and just charging them entry/air. Entry $10, air $10 and BYOP fee $10 = $30 per person, $150 per 5-man team. If you get a few teams that come out regularly to play each other you're doing good. I'm sure if they're bringing their own paint they're probably getting it for around $25-$35 a case. If you don't have many teams around and you're running a rec/woods operation then you may just want to consider FPO, let the renters come in and shoot a couple hundred rounds of your field paint per day. Charge say $30 per bag of 500 or $100 per case. At that rate you won't have guys going out and unloading tons of paint on renters/rec ballers, but you won't have such high prices that you're turning people away either.

Have you checked with insurance companies about BYOP? They may not even allow it.

-edit- Prices are just random numbers thrown out there for example, feel free to change them around to match your costs/expenses. I've seen pictures of Dubai, I wouldn't be surprised at all if paint was $300 a case there.

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Old 04-03-2009, 07:09 PM #63
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