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Old 03-13-2009, 04:19 PM #1
russc
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12 gram Sniper discussion...fps results

First of all, I have a set of shots I'd like to share. I don't have a video, and yes people have asked for one. I'll make it but just take my word for these results for now. There isn't any point in my lying, and you are free to try it yourselves.



These were made with a stock 2k4 WGP gun, black magic reg, .684 Un1tec barrel, line SI lever changer in bottomline config, stock aluminum open face bolt. All shots were made without holding the pump, rubber band used as return spring. Shot interval was about 5-10 seconds as I only had two paintballs, so every shot I walked over and picked the ball back up after shooting it into a hanging bathrobe.

1. *forgot to chrono(
227 (adjusted)
296
300
304
289
291
296
297
10. 309
295
295
295
293
291
293
294
296
290
20. 294
302
291
292
294
296
299
298
295
296
30. 294
298
298
303
296
300
302
303
302
*lost ball*
40. 291
289
324
340 (WTF! Gun loses sweetspot, starts to shoot hot)
45. 291
233 - vented after shot

As you can see, not only does it get insane efficiency to rival the best Nelson setups out there, but the FPS curve is essentially flat until you get to the last 3-4 shots. I don't believe this gun was properly sweet spotted as you can see when the regged pressure dipped at the end the gun went all the way up to 340 fps. 45 shots in total, all of them in the top range of allowable velocities.

Keep in mind, this is an unmodified mid-pressure stock WGP gun with a 12gram changer in the bottomline duckbill.

So, there's a few things that are worth discussing here.

1. Regged low-med pressure 12 gram guns can get a flatter pressure curve, while getting just about as many shots.

2. "dead space" is less significant, if not inconsequential in a regged setup versus an unregged setup where all expansion is avoided.

3. The sweet spot on Snipers have potential for abuse. This is why I tell people who want to run unregged CO2 or HPA into their Snipers to get a pre-2k valve. Say you start at 280 fps, with the unregged pressure slamming your valve shut. Once your pressure starts dropping you will begin to have insanely high velocity as the gun is reaching its sweet spot the lower you go.

4. Why don't more stock class setups incorporate regulators, as a flat pressure curve is more desirable than a dipping pressure curve, given that you aren't losing many shots, if any.
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Old 03-13-2009, 04:40 PM #2
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Old 03-13-2009, 05:06 PM #3
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That is unreal and totally contradictory to what I've previously read.

:runsoutthedoorlookingforaCO2compatiblereg:
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Old 03-13-2009, 07:16 PM #4
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I'm going to make a video as soon as I can wrangle up a camera...
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Old 03-13-2009, 07:25 PM #5
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nice work russ, I've never seen a good test on regged 12 grams, that is some really good news!!! thats A LOT of good shots!!
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:56 PM #6
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Yeah its a ****load of shots...I just repeated it a couple times. The video I took is really crappy but I'll throw up a link once its done anyways and make another one later.

I'm finding that running on 12ies at the upper end of the FPS scale requires some really tight sweetspotting. I'd also recommend running your gun input slightly below the sweetspot, so when cartridge pressure drops you don't get massive spikes.
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Old 03-13-2009, 09:49 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russc View Post
340 (WTF! Gun loses sweetspot, starts to shoot hot)
the FPS curve is essentially flat until you get to the last 3-4 shots. I don't believe this gun was properly sweet spotted as you can see when the regged pressure dipped at the end the gun went all the way up to 340 fps.
4. Why don't more stock class setups incorporate regulators,
how hard was your valve spring?
i get the same thing when i use a ligher valve spring

i think regs were not allowed in stock class rules, or the older rules said so

i think this is to limit rof, if you dont use a reg youll need a harder valve spring for consistency, and hence a harder main spring
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Originally Posted by russc View Post
I'd also recommend running your gun input slightly below the sweetspot, so when cartridge pressure drops you don't get massive spikes.
thats a good idea
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Old 03-13-2009, 09:55 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pump View Post
how hard was your valve spring?
i get the same thing when i use a ligher valve spring

i think regs were not allowed in stock class rules, or the older rules said so

i think this is to limit rof, if you dont use a reg youll need a harder valve spring for consistency, and hence a harder main spring
thats a good idea
The valve and springs are stock WGP. It's just that I hadn't properly sweetspotted the gun before testing it on co2. Changing springs would just change where that sweetspot sits.
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:00 PM #9
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how hard was you main spring?

stock WGP valve spring is stiff enough imo for 12 grams
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:20 PM #10
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So wait, i'm confused. Does this mean that you should regulate 12ies to get more shots out of them?
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:28 PM #11
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Originally Posted by grantis2911 View Post
So wait, i'm confused. Does this mean that you should regulate 12ies to get more shots out of them?
the old myth that palmer stabs gave you more shots per 12 gram
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:29 PM #12
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That confused me more...so this is a myth or was a myth that was just proven to be true?
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:59 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pump View Post
how hard was you main spring?

stock WGP valve spring is stiff enough imo for 12 grams
It's set up exactly as you would run HPA or a CO2 tank. Instead of a tank it's a 12 gram in the bottomline, running through macro, through a Black Magic reg.

The mainspring is weak enough where I can cock it by holding it in one hand and making a punching motion.

You shouldn't ever run 12 grams in a 2k+ valve. Sure you can crank your mainspring in enough to get it to shoot, but as pressure drops you get closer and closer to your sweetspot that you have overshot by 500psi, and suddenly you're shooting like 400 fps.

Here's a vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkMOI...e=channel_page

A ****ty vid, but it shows what I'm talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by grantis2911 View Post
So wait, i'm confused. Does this mean that you should regulate 12ies to get more shots out of them?
I'm not sure if this would work on Phantoms, but it sure as hell works on Snipers. You're lucky to get 25-30 shots with an unregged 12 gram, devolumized valve chamber, pre2k valve and unported barrel and changer in the VA. In that setup your FPS would be dropping constantly as you go through the cartridge.

I just chronoed a gun shooting 40+ shots at and over 300 fps with a changer in the bottomline, otherwise stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grantis2911 View Post
That confused me more...so this is a myth or was a myth that was just proven to be true?
There's two myths here.

1. regulators and bottomlines are just extra expansion room and will kill your 12 gram efficiency.

My answer to that myth is that pre-reg volume doesn't matter and in fact may help your 12 gram efficiency in a regged LP/MP setup. If you plug your 12 gram right into your reg you'd probably get liquid making its way past the reg and expanding in your valve chamber, screwing your consistency and efficiency.

2. Regs will increase 12 gram efficiency

My answer to this one is that in the case of Snipers, yes, they do.

Last edited by russc : 03-13-2009 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:15 PM #14
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So why wouldn't it work to reg 12ies on Phantoms?
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:32 PM #15
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I haven't tested it, maybe it works but I can't confirm it. Nelson based guns are generally a high pressure platform. One of the problems is that you are pushing the hammer against the valve to cock the gun, unlike Snipers where you pull it away from the valve.

If someone could test a Phantom in a bottomline, mid pressure regulated setup that would be great.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:38 PM #16
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What pressure is your reg at?

Last edited by EDDAKA1 : 03-13-2009 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:49 PM #17
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I'd have to make a reg tester. It shouldn't matter as long as you're running at your gun's individual sweetspot. It's a stock Nightkast so I'd assume around the 350psi mark.

edit: ashcroft 0-1500 gauge says it's about 240 psi. I don't have anything with a smaller scale reading because the only thing I put gauges on is my tanks.

Last edited by russc : 03-14-2009 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 03-14-2009, 12:39 AM #18
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did another test. This time I have a reg tester on the gun post-reg, it appears to have slightly hurt the efficiency, so devolumizing may still be a good idea...to a point. You want enough to seal your valve and allow for good consistency, but too much can still hurt.

I re-sweet spotted the reg, you can tell the difference now that it doesn't shoot up at the end. Turned mainspring out about 3 turns, 240 was the post-sweetspotting pressure, not sure what it was before.

1. 293
242 <- second ball, grungy and old
281
290
280
292
286
281
252 <--second ball, I stop using it after this shot
10. 284
283
279
289
293
290
290
290
285
287
20. 300
295
294
295
299
296
291
299
294
296
30. 297
292
297
295
295
295
292
288
38. 240
vents, last shot.

Last edited by russc : 03-14-2009 at 12:51 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-14-2009, 01:47 AM #19
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2 shot drop off.

Sweet Jebus. Maybe your gun just has pixie fairies in it.
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Old 03-14-2009, 01:47 PM #20
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Originally Posted by grantis2911 View Post
So why wouldn't it work to reg 12ies on Phantoms?
Because nelsons like high pressure.
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Old 03-14-2009, 02:10 PM #21
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Test to see that the numbers stay the same for several different cocker based pumps under the same conditions... All the same controlled variables. The question is "Is it just that particular model that delivers that sort of consistency and efficiency?" Just a thought.
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