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Old 01-21-2009, 06:52 AM #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C MacKN View Post
Many that don't believe in God don't believe because they want proof and they don't want to just have faith. ...

I believe in God because he is there when I need him and I have had my proof more than just this one incident.

I have more faith than ever I know there is a God. ...
great testimony. I appreciate you sharing it. as has been mentioned, paragraph breaks are your friend, please use them. a post of such length, usually won't actually get read when there are no breaks, as it is difficult to continue comprehending your line of reasoning or thought expressed in text.

I have cropped your post for a few points that I wanted to comment on as well. firstly, I hope that you don't really believe that this experiential proof that you had - and please understand, I am not denying it whatsoever - is any kind of "proof" that others can apply in their lives.

For those "seeking", that kind of testimony is a great faith builder. for posting on a public forum, like this, it will be torn to shreds as being proof of anything. Again, I am not saying that what happened is not real to you, those kinds of things happen to many of us, and add to our experience as Christian (and religious folk, to be more inclusive) - more evidence for our own faith-strengthening.

As for the second part about believing because He is there for you... Again, I completely empathize with this paradigm, but I would admonish that you be careful with putting your faith in this kind of paradigm. God is there for you in these experiences. what about when you think He should be there and when you feel that He isn't? will you lose your faith? will you drop God like a hot potato because He didn't answer a prayer the way that you think it should have been answered? I pray that your faith is not based on works of physical evidences, and internal proofs. those proofs and evidences will be challenged in your life. I am not a doom and gloom sayer, but there is no promise that once you are "saved", life will be a bed of roses.

and finally - wonderful! I too, KNOW that there is a God, and further that I choose to follow the Christian religion/beliefs. but remember that our salvation is not something that is justified by anything we do, see, feel, or experience. it is only by faith. faith in receiving that gift of salvation. experiences are personal evidences, and the change in your life as such, is an external experience that others will recognize and see; not your personal experience; but the one you portray.

Nobody can take experience from you. they will try to redirect it to natural causes, or relegate your experience to your lack of explanation as lack of intelligence. I pray that you do not dismay, but that you continue in your faith and reason. you may not have all the answers that come up in a public forum like this, but "they" can NOT take the experience that we both know that you experienced in God revealing Himself to you - EVEN if it COULD be explained away, to YOU it was an experience that brought you closer to God with faith and reason.
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Old 01-21-2009, 07:41 AM #44
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Cookie cutter arguments:

ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL SANITY
(1) I've had religious experiences that can't be explained unless I'm insane or God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE (I)
(1) I once experienced something I can't explain.
(2) [Atheists offer several possible, natural explanations.]
(3) You're just guessing! I was there.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE (II)
(1) I have experienced feelings of God's presence in my mind.
(2) Therefore, God exists.
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Old 01-21-2009, 08:09 AM #45
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You do realize that when you put you're car in reverse there are bright white lights that shine backward right? They could have reflected off something to give you a light in your rear-view.
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:15 AM #46
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Originally Posted by C MacKN View Post
I am not goin to start an arguement with you derr, I have my beliefs and you have yours.
Then why make this thread? Your assertions that God MUST have intervened are false. Your tail lights reflecting off a window or any object that is usually found in a neighborhood setting could easily have made the light shine in your rear view mirror. It didn't HAVE to be the intervention of a sentient being. If you want to believe it was in this instance, that's fine. But it didn't HAVE to be. There are plenty of other explanations. You can take them or leave them but you certainly can't dismiss them the way you've been doing.

You've also tried to prove God with the Bible which is just so incredibly stupid I can't even believe a sentient human being would attempt it. If you can't see why it's a stupid argument, you don't belong here.

So if you don't want to start an argument:

1) Don't post stupid threads like this. Keep this kind of thing in the CK thread. Proselytizing or testifying is not a valid thread topic. You're going to get flamed, don't whine when it happens.

2) Learn how to debate properly. Proving God with the Bible is like proving a spoon exists with the spoon itself.

3) Stop being disingenuous to us and yourself. You didn't just come here to share your story, you came here to make a point. You just covered that up by only making a half assed attempt at making the point.
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:40 AM #47
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Originally Posted by warbeak2099 View Post
...Your assertions that God MUST have intervened are false.....
sorry, but you can not prove this matter of fact statement that apparently everyone must assume is correct because you do. please. this is HIS assertion in HIS experience.
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:49 AM #48
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sorry, but you can not prove this matter of fact statement that apparently everyone must assume is correct because you do. please. this is HIS assertion in HIS experience.
You HYPOCRITE!
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:50 AM #49
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What about all the times that children have been accidentally run over by cars? I'm sure it's happened thousands of times. Where was god?
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:05 PM #50
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You HYPOCRITE!
uhm, okay.
Quote:
This is why I believe in God
seems pretty clear to me, that he isn't' assuming anything for anyone else but himself. (though I did address some of that in my previous post directed to the OP)
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:13 PM #51
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:35 PM #52
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sorry, but you can not prove this matter of fact statement that apparently everyone must assume is correct because you do. please. this is HIS assertion in HIS experience.
He's declaring it as a universal fact. It's not. He could say "I believe God intervened even though there are other viable explanations." That's an accurate statement, not, "I believe God intervened, therefore there are no other viable explanations."
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Old 01-21-2009, 02:31 PM #53
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I semi agree. These aren't subjective viewpoints in need of an objective overseer.
You're right; to each their own, neither is perceived to be regarded as subjective to any extent. But, that wasn't what I was getting at. What Christians believe; is that through love, comes Christ along w/ all his teachings brought down to all those who follow. And, according to them -- since Atheists are bound by hatred, (rather than love) those who deny His presence shall never reap the benefits upheld through Christ as a consequence to their decision in life. Stating, that truth may only come to those who care to one day believe.

Also...

Since "Pride comes before the fall" arrogance is what they say blinds those in ultimately inheriting what's true.

So, basically, every end scientific explanation you dish out to a person who supports Theism; is regarded as false by their logic. Hense, pointless to argue.
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:51 PM #54
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Originally Posted by warbeak2099 View Post
He's declaring it as a universal fact. It's not. He could say "I believe God intervened even though there are other viable explanations." That's an accurate statement, not, "I believe God intervened, therefore there are no other viable explanations."
I see what you are saying, but I guess I see the context clearly saying that it is his beliefs, his experience why he believes and his reasoning for his being a Christian. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with his reasoning, but you made a declaration of universal fact in argument - which is what I was objecting to. (based on the obvious, in my opinion, context of his experience)
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:00 PM #55
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I have to agree with warbeak on this one, RP.

It's completely justified logic when saying "I believe in God because of this," as nobody is going to argue (or should argue) that he doesn't believe in God or that his analysis IS false.

The problem comes when the proclamation that "God MUST exist" based on the analysis. In reality, as mentioned, the number of possible reasons are infinite. As such, it provides no factual basis for claiming that "God MUST exist," only that "it feels right to me" or "this is what I believe."

I, too, appreciate the testimony and applaud the guts to stand up and speak about one's beliefs openly. However, I'd try to steer clear of proclaiming universal truths. I think most of us are guilty of doing so, but I perceived a few of them in the OP.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by C MacKN
There is no other way to explain the thoughts that I had and to explain that flash that I saw in my mirror other than to say that it was an act of God.
An assertion such as this may be made only upon the premise that EVERY other possible explanation has been exhausted. Because, I believe, it is impossible to do such a thing (as mentioned, explanations can be infinite in number), such an assertion is ill-stated IMO.
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:16 PM #56
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Many that don't believe in God don't believe because they want proof and they don't want to just have faith. I made this thread to explain how I became a christian and how I am such a strong christian today. I was about 3 years old at my grandma's house when I asked God to come into my heart. I went to church every Sunday and learned a lot about God. As I got older I strarted to say to my self , " What if there is no God" because like many of you I also wanted some proof. In the past couple years I have had life experiences where the only answer to how things in that situation turned out was that God interviened. Here is an example, one evening I was leaving my uncles house and he has a son who was only 6 at the time. I took the keys from my mom and wanted to back the car out and warm it up. I went outside and got in the car and started it and just sat there until I found a good song that was on the radio. Once I found a song I put the car in reverse and as I started backing up something toled me to not go and to stop the car. I hesitated for a second and started to back up again. Once I started to back up again I saw something bright in my rear view mirror ( I cannot explain what it was but it was pitch black outside and there was nothing around that could have made that glow that I saw ). I put the car back into park and got out of the car and when I looked behind the car my 6 year old cousin was there. If I hadn't had seen whatever that was in my mirror I could have killed him. There are no other houses around, no lights, my cousin is to short and when he is behind the car you cannot even see his head, he didn't have any kind of flashlight with him, no one else was outside except me and my cousin. There is no other way to explain the thoughts that I had and to explain that flash that I saw in my mirror other than to say that it was an act of God. I have a couple more that I can share with you guys but this one touched me the most and brought me closer to God. ( Some of you will laugh at this and say I'm crazy if you are not a believer and some of you will understand and maybe even have had an experience yourself) I believe in God because he is there when I need him and I have had my proof more than just this one incident. I have more faith than ever I know there is a God. If you have had anything similiar happen please post it I would like to hear what happened.
So basically what your saying is that if I have not had such an experience in my life, then God does not care if I believe in him. If he did it for you when you were doubting, why wouldn't he do it for me, unless he didn't care?

By the way, you Christians believe that I cannot possibly get into Heaven unless I genuinely believe in God. What if I am incapable of believing? What if, no matter how much I immerse my self in the Church, and no matter how much I want to believe, I can't.

Am I doomed?
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:19 PM #57
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...It didn't HAVE to be the intervention of a sentient being.....
Not to mention the fact that it could have been the intervention of a "supernatural" being other than a God, or even a benevolent extraterrestrial. And even if it was "God," how do you know it wasn't the "God" that Muslims believe in, or Vishnu, or even the Sun God Ra? How does that experience lead you to become a Christian?
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:33 PM #58
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I have to agree with warbeak on this one, RP.

It's completely justified logic when saying "I believe in God because of this," as nobody is going to argue (or should argue) that he doesn't believe in God or that his analysis IS false.

The problem comes when the proclamation that "God MUST exist" based on the analysis. In reality, as mentioned, the number of possible reasons are infinite. As such, it provides no factual basis for claiming that "God MUST exist," only that "it feels right to me" or "this is what I believe."

...
i see what you are saying, as I saw what WB was saying. But this is in part why there are so many arguments and name calling on these threads. in the context of his God must exist is for him, and in his experience of the testimony. he did not just say that because of that, God must exist; with no contextual information - there was more text than that. it was not a stand alone statement. (not even any paragraph breaks!!) I stand by my analysis. I understand yours and WB's, I just happen to disagree based on my explanation of how I understood his OP.
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:56 PM #59
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i see what you are saying, as I saw what WB was saying. But this is in part why there are so many arguments and name calling on these threads. in the context of his God must exist is for him, and in his experience of the testimony. he did not just say that because of that, God must exist; with no contextual information - there was more text than that. it was not a stand alone statement. (not even any paragraph breaks!!) I stand by my analysis. I understand yours and WB's, I just happen to disagree based on my explanation of how I understood his OP.
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:00 PM #60
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i see what you are saying, as I saw what WB was saying. But this is in part why there are so many arguments and name calling on these threads. in the context of his God must exist is for him, and in his experience of the testimony. he did not just say that because of that, God must exist; with no contextual information - there was more text than that. it was not a stand alone statement. (not even any paragraph breaks!!) I stand by my analysis. I understand yours and WB's, I just happen to disagree based on my explanation of how I understood his OP.
The problem is that there ARE other possible explanations. Saying there aren't is universally false. That doesn't mean the explanation he came to is false, just that there ARE other possibilities.
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Old 01-22-2009, 06:40 AM #61
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The problem is that there ARE other possible explanations. Saying there aren't is universally false. That doesn't mean the explanation he came to is false, just that there ARE other possibilities.
and I completely agree with you. absolutely, unreservedly.

but I don't see that (tracking of viable explanations for a perception in this physics) as what he was expressing as part of his experience. what happened to him was something that had no explanation for him (though, as pointed out correctly - there may be observable explanations). so the experience for him was his experience, based in his understanding of the world around him. and for him, he didn't think there was any other options or explanations at the moment and time that the experience was taking place.
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:46 AM #62
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:00 AM #63
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You do realize that when you put you're car in reverse there are bright white lights that shine backward right? They could have reflected off something to give you a light in your rear-view.
read the other posts before posting something that's already been explained.
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Then why make this thread?
Because he wanted to share an experience with other believers and non-believers. i like how he clearly states something and then you go off and attack him for something else and pretend he didn't just burn your intelligence.
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uhm, okay.

seems pretty clear to me, that he isn't' assuming anything for anyone else but himself. (though I did address some of that in my previous post directed to the OP)
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