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Old 01-08-2009, 04:00 AM #1
pump
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Empire Balanced Valve and slot detent holes

does anyone's valve opens before the bolt clears the slots for the detents?

the longer than usual stem of the empire valve opens before the bolt can clear the slots for the detent in my shocktech

does anyone else have this problem?


im gonna cut the tip of the stem shorter to clear it, wish me luck
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Old 01-08-2009, 07:17 AM #2
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Funny,

I was going to PM you about this mod and see what you thought....

I thought that perhaps the stem was made longer because the valve uses added travel due to the lighter force on the seals???

I was going to pull the bolt out and observe the rammer driving the valve and see how close it gets to the valve body. If there is extra room.....DREMEL the tip of the valve stem down to Stock valve distance from the valve body in the closed state.

Let us know how it works and post some pics!!!
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Old 01-08-2009, 03:58 PM #3
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well stock was pretty short
AKA is almost the same length
Zenitrams was long

i think the RED valve was a little shorter than Zenitram, but i forget

but the Empire is like super long
im gonna cut enough just for the bolt to clear the detent slots and see if i can get the air from passing through to stop
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Old 01-08-2009, 06:13 PM #4
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My bolt has o-rings so I wasn't too worried about it....But, if I can further tune my marker to make it better, I will.

Good luck!

How are you going to shorten the stem? Stainless steel is sometimes very hard to manipulate.
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:16 PM #5
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orings wont help

ill use a lathe
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:24 AM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pump View Post
orings wont help
I guess I don't really know what you're trying to fix then...

I thought you were worried about the air escaping around the bolt and out the detents or eyes. On mine with the bolt all the way foward to just touch the empire valve stem the orings isolate the exterior of the bolt forcing the air through the center... even if it's not 100% lined up.

Ummm... O.K. here is a really crude drawing I just did in paintbrush:



I would like to shorten the stem a little so the body HP air source hole lines up perfect with the bolt intake hole when the valve is at it's most open travel point. The ACP low blow bolt has a somewhat oval intake allowing for some varried tolerences with body's.
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Old 01-09-2009, 04:24 PM #7
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Why not drill a hole in the hammer where it contacts the stem? That way you would further lighten the recip mass.
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:57 PM #8
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Funk, im talking about the Empire Valve's stem being too long so the bolt tip doesnt clear the slots for the detents so air passes through the sides

so what i did was measure the distance the bolt needed to clear the slots, which was .085ish i cut with the lathe about .080 and sanded until the bolt cleared the slot


i was thinking about that VDub, but then i thought i might want to use the GBR on other B2Ks i got and other valves

what i need to do is make a delrin/stainless, alumiunm, or titanium rammer for my GBR!!!!!
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Old 01-09-2009, 08:04 PM #9
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I ground my Empire valve stem down today, too. I'll I've got are my eyeballs and a dremel, though. I ground off about 1mm, put on a chamfer, deburred then polished. My stem is now just a hair longer than the stock stem.

I was having issues getting over 300fps with the AA valve originally (At 250psi inline). After grinding down the stem, those same settings got me to 317fps[1].

After reading pump's measurements, I took another look. I ground down another 1mm (bringing me to roughly 2mm ~= .078), very close to pumps final length. Whereas I was doing 317fps after removing 1mm, after removing 2mm I got an avg of 322.

This seems to be an indication that without modification the valve was opening prematurely. Before grinding, the hammer would touch the valve stem before the breach was fully sealed. There was maybe 0.2mm of a gap. The breach is now fully sealed before the hammer makes contact with the stem.

Quote:
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what i need to do is make a delrin/stainless, alumiunm, or titanium rammer for my GBR!!!!!
I'll take one of those, please

[1]I chrono at home with reballs & .670 freak insert. 315fps reballs ~= 280fps paint.
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Old 01-09-2009, 11:03 PM #10
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^^great post, numbers rule. makes me feel like buying a valve just to experiment.
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Old 01-09-2009, 11:16 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Compulsion View Post
I was having issues getting over 300fps with the AA valve originally (At 250psi inline). After grinding down the stem, those same settings got me to 317fps[1].

After reading pump's measurements, I took another look. I ground down another 1mm (bringing me to roughly 2mm ~= .078), very close to pumps final length. Whereas I was doing 317fps after removing 1mm, after removing 2mm I got an avg of 322.
FPS gains can be just by having the shorter stem

you need to make sure that its either the air not passing the slots or the extra cycle distance of the ram adding the FPS

the only way to really tell is to pull the pin on the bolt and holding it forward between shots and take FPS measurements with the normal length and the shortened stem

i dont know how much FPS or efficiency i lost before i cut my stem, but i think it was minor

it was just annoying for me so i did it hahahaha
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Old 01-09-2009, 11:32 PM #12
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^ I love how scientific you are. Oh, and I wouldn't drill a GBR, I thought you might be using a modded ram or some such. Maybe even a borg ram cartridge wrapped in bacon. I never know what you are going to try.
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Old 01-10-2009, 02:01 AM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pump View Post
Funk, im talking about the Empire Valve's stem being too long so the bolt tip doesnt clear the slots for the detents so air passes through the sides

so what i did was measure the distance the bolt needed to clear the slots, which was .085ish i cut with the lathe about .080 and sanded until the bolt cleared the slot


i was thinking about that VDub, but then i thought i might want to use the GBR on other B2Ks i got and other valves

what i need to do is make a delrin/stainless, alumiunm, or titanium rammer for my GBR!!!!!

Got it! I'll do mine next. I'll take measurements first as suggested with the Ram and bolt uncoupled.

One question for all who have an Empire valve... Actually, new thread!
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:50 AM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 63VDub View Post
Maybe even a borg ram cartridge wrapped in bacon.
i thought of it, i wonder if we could use them
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Got it! I'll do mine next.
does yours need it?

i know mine did because my ST body is out of spec, but......i should try my better spec ST body......................hahaha i got 2


not like they cost anything
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Old 01-10-2009, 10:37 AM #15
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Quote:
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does yours need it?

I know the bolt doesn't line up with the HP air supply hole perfect, as in the drawing I posted above. The bolt does clear the cocker detent I have when it just starts to hit the ram though.

I'm thinking I might get better air flow if I shorten it a bit.
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:08 PM #16
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hummmmm

i think you just wish you had slots so you could do what Compulsive and I did


when does the hole line up?
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Old 01-11-2009, 12:11 PM #17
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Quote:
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hummmmm

i think you just wish you had slots so you could do what Compulsive and I did


LOL!! Actually..... Your right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pump View Post

when does the hole line up?
It's pretty hard to see because of where the hole is in the body... I tried holding the bolt next to the body where it would begin to hit the empire valve. I was going to use the stock valve stem as a distance guide to cut the Empire. From there, as long as the low blow bolt distance from the face to the hole inlet is the same as the stock bolt and using a stock sping, it should align perfect. I'll have to try using the stock spring with the Empire valve next time. (Thanks Compulsion)

What do you think???
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Old 01-11-2009, 06:00 PM #18
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move the bolt until it hits the stem, then either measure or hold the bolt in that position and remove your valve, then look up the body's valve hole to see if the bolts input hole is unobstructed.


but first you should do a pulled pin chrono shot, with the bolt in the position where it just touches the stem and with it all the way forward to see if your gonna lose fps.

but if you leave the pin in to test youll get an incorrect measurement, because it will always give a lower reading
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:53 AM #19
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well i shot my gun today with some really bad paint, not more air passing through the eye covers, so yippee

p.s.
my LPR seems really low using the GBR(without the pinching oring) and with the balanced valve

i need to chrono with round paint and see for sure
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Old 01-12-2009, 11:32 PM #20
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I did some testing and found out that my bolt face doesn't even clear the feedneck before it strikes the valve open. Poof! Blast of air up the feedneck!!!! Not so good for FPS or efficiency. Pulse still kicked the balls through.

It looks like I have an excuse to be cool like Pump and Compulsion after all.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:21 AM #21
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Yeah, this is nothing new. When I still had my Empire long ago, i noticed the stem was much, much longer.

Somewhere, I had some pics that either Madpooh or AcidCustom took that would show the obvious lengthy stem on the Empire.

The old feedneck card trip was a joke with that valve in. Heck, it would probably blow off a stack of cards mine was so bad.

It was the straw that broke the camels back, pissed me off with the poor sealing too boot, so I sold it. They are a pain in the arse, but it was fun to dink with.
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