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Old 12-14-2008, 08:13 PM #22
voodoo27909
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Apparently you are in fact correct. After much research... I found that the Fed's have seen fit to turn over the responsability of fire extinguisher NON DOT regulation to the individual state governments. My info was evidently antiquated. Thank's Rampage for bringing that to light.

I would love to see an industry standard safety inspection for all home made LAW's before they are allowed to be used in an event....something in writing (much like the GSRP) which ALL event organizers adhere to, regardless of where the game happens to be this month. I know each field does in fact take a look at the LAWS before allowing them, I would just feel much safer if it was the same inspection, all the time, and we all know exactly what to expect from the proceedure. SplatBrothers in Hopewell, Virginia has a very in depth proceedure they use before allowing any LAW to enter their field of play, written by the likes of Coyote from Dead By Dawn and others who are knowlegdable on the subject.
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Old 12-17-2008, 05:07 AM #23
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Well, your not going to get any across the board standard. As it is, I'd say probably half the insurance providers out there dont allow air cannon on the fields they insure. So the best were gonna get is field to field over site.

At our field, we have an engineer that does air cannon as a hobby. Since he is trained as such and likes to play with them any way, he has taken on the roll of LAWS and tank cannon inspection. Now not every field is gonna be like us and have an engineer hanging around to do that for them. So the field operator better know his or her stuff on the topic and keep on top of whats on their field.

Hopefully the field owners understand what their policies do and do not cover. Its not good to extend yourself, even if everyone signs a waiver. Your still open to liability if you dont specificly have air cannon covered.
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Old 01-11-2009, 01:00 PM #24
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i would say use a grenade lancher get pvc pipe and do wat all these other ppl
are saying but rap it in suck tape or elitirc tape so if it explodes the shaperel
doesnt hurt or sever a finger
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:03 PM #25
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anyway, to get back on topic, here is a really good launcher guide.

http://forum.specialopspaintball.com...owtopic=130540

he used pvc for an air chamber on the over-under but i used aluminum for mine just because that way i don't have to worry about the pvc problems.
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Old 01-28-2009, 08:23 PM #26
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the problem with PVC is that after consecutive charges from co2 the plastic loses integrity and its rating diminishes. after so many fills, it will fail. PVC, like all plastic, weakens and becomes brittle when exposed to cold and co2 when compressed is a cold gas.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:58 AM #27
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Well...before this very moment, I was under the impression that everyone knew that you DONT charge ANY PVC with ANY Co2. This confirms my statement that it is seldom the PVC that is at fault, but more the PVC users which cause the failures.


... now please excuse me while I duck out and put on my "Flame-resistant" suit before the next round of replies come in.

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Old 01-29-2009, 04:25 PM #28
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:54 PM #29
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lol, just trying to help bro, oh and throw on the cevlar as well....
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Old 01-31-2009, 12:44 AM #30
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launchers

1. i work at Picatinny arsenal in northern new jersey,we build all kinds of neet shtuff.stuff that goes boom,stuff that goes really far, stuff that will blow your mind.
2. compressed air is key for launchers using pvc
3.you only need 60 psi to shoot a nerf football 150yds+
4.pressure and volume are directly proportional
5.really ..volume and pressure are directly proportional
6.saftey valves/relief vales key to proper pvc launchers
7. use sch80 pvc,
8.a 12 gram co2 powerlet is rated @ 800psi+ in that little vesel,thats what gets people hurt,people who dont understand pressure and volume.
9.leave the hightech stuff to the profesionals, seriously. we know what we are doing
10.if anyone wishes to know how to make a sfe PVC launcher please feel free to pm me, i would be glad to explain.

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Old 02-08-2009, 01:28 AM #31
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Hey im not going to say that pvc is safe or not however i do believe that comparing them to carbon wrapped tanks is an inadequet analogy. Yes there have been a several accedents with carbon fiber tanks, but when you think about this in pure numbers I'd say it doesnt match up. There are literally million (s) of carbon fiber tanks being utilized by the paintball community and they are used at every type of game imagineable (maybe not stock class). PVC launches however are only used at scenario games and i'd be surprized if there were more than several hundred in use. That being said i have never seen a carbon fiber tank rupture and have only heard of maybe 5 occasions where they have ever. It seems in this thread alone there have been more than 5 people that have actully witnessed a pvc cannon explode. Maybe its all user error but it seems to me to be infinately easier to make a mistake with a pvc cannon than a carbon tank.
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Old 02-08-2009, 09:18 AM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo27909 View Post
Wait a second...I definately DO NOT agree to JB weld being used to secure fittings, valves, or gauges in any material used for pressurized air. You're joking...right?

No im not joking, on a 2 inch threaded peice of pipe you think an epoxy wont hold? Theres no way it will ever come apart. first the threads would have to fail and second the epoxy would have to fail. Ideally youd have a skilled welder weld it up but epoxy/jbweld is a great 2nd choice
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:43 PM #33
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Okay,
so a lot of people are discussing that PVC is inherently unsafe due to weather, ignorance, and realistic abuse to be found on the field. Steel pipe has been suggested and Aluminum pipe has been suggested. Is there anything the community of LAWs makers can come to an agreement on that would be a widely acceptable pressure vessel for our LAWs? If we can, we need to post a link to said product so there's a means to actually do so. What kind of pressure is the Aluminum rated to? What kind of thickness are we looking at for the Aluminum? Where can we get it?

This is also going to pertain to the Artillery and Mortar crowd, although they haven't voiced an opinion yet. Maybe we as a community can come up with one commonly accepted design that all fields will accept* since PVC is really not the safest when handled by human beings. Then links posted to the specific valves that are acceptable, specific pressure vessels, specific relief valves, etc so there's no more guess work. I would take comfort knowing that if I built a cannon based off that design it's acceptable to use here in MD, or up in NJ where we travel to kick american ***.

*Disclaimer: Some fields cheese out their anti-armor/building equipment by slapping PVC over a regular marker shooting a different color paint. If that is your idea of a LAWs, this thread doesn't pertain to you.
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Old 02-09-2009, 07:12 PM #34
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water baloon sling + paintball grenade works fine for me and my guys
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:58 PM #35
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A simple At weapon would be a large caliber Anti-Tank rifle. Barrett Light .50, Boys AT rifle or what ever. Add 1" pvc to extend the barrel of an old marker, give it a cool flash suppressor. That way you don't have to worry about it exploding on you. Simple yet very effective. Sling that one over your shoulder until you need it.
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Old 04-03-2009, 11:07 PM #36
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Well guys, the combination of regulated COMPRESSED AIR and proper saftey and release/saftey valves can make PVC a safe solution. Find a valve that will blow well before the rating on the pipe states (this depends on diameter/thickness ect.) and if you really want, then wrap the entire compression chamber in a thick layer of duct tape. This tape will HELP, not prevent, the spread of shrapnel in case of an explosion. But nevertheless, if one uses AIR ONLY, and keeps it at a reasonable pressure, with the proper saftey valves, then this should never happen.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:48 AM #37
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This was a PVC chamber used to fill mortar rounds. It blew at a little over 100 psi. The shrapnel luckily was stopped by the walls of the bathtub, however pieces of PVC blew through the ceiling tiles above the tub. And no this was not me that blew this up, i just witnessed it.
You were using 3-4" DWV pipe and drilled it? you wonder why it blew apart at 100 psi? im surprised it made it that high.

To stop the PVC Shrapnel you could layer the damn thing in 1 wrap of Fiber Glass.

People are dangerous are we going to require and IQ test to play paintball?

Im waiting for the day some kid comes in with his aluminum launcher made of 3" .65 wall 6061. That he had threaded. Running no Burst Valve and it blow a cap of it and hits someone in the face. This burst on this is around 1500 psi and its thin wall so threading it is going to reduce is SIGNIFICANTLY around the threaded areas. "O its ok i dont need a safety valve im using aluminum!"

Or even better he doesnt get it threaded and just uses Epoxy on it.

Disallowing PVC to say metal is safer is reprehensible. Both are equally dangerous in the hands of stupid people that are incapable of following directions.

I run Fiber Wrapped PVC. @ 40 PSI on my launchers. with a 100 PSI pop valve. 125 PSI burst Line. and 125 PSI fail Valves. Launchers failed in 3 years and two stage regulators. ZERO.

We could have PorkChop come on here as well, Since he does Pressurized systems all day long as well.
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:12 AM #38
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I run Fiber Wrapped PVC. @ 40 PSI on my launchers. with a 100 PSI pop valve. 125 PSI burst Line. and 125 PSI fail Valves. Launchers failed in 3 years and two stage regulators. ZERO.

We could have PorkChop come on here as well, Since he does Pressurized systems all day long as well.[/quote]


Thanks for the vote of confidence, and I am thinking of wrapping my PVC in fiberglass also.

I bought some stainless pipe (welded seam), I cut and threaded it, but it will be heavy. Ideal for a tank though.

Your set up is very very safe. One of the jobs I do is inspect gas piping installation in buildings, so I feel I am qualified to make that assessment.

If you use PVC, DON'T drill holes in it for attaching something. Use split ring hangars to mount whatever it is you need to attach. Lowes has them for about 2$.

STEVEBSKI-- I think everyone uses PVC for it's light weight. When you bump up to metal, the weight really goes up. No one wants to tote heavy stuff around.
I think SOCOJ hit the nail on the head with the fiberglass wrap. At least if there is a breech in your chamber, it will split instead of blow up and keep the weight down.

Another observation I have made is that your barrel length is proportionate with your chamber size.

Too short of barrel and your accuracy disappates, and the same for too long of barrel.

I feel you get the best perfomance by figuring when your air pushing the rocket reaches close to maximum velocity by the end of the barrel.
Too short, and turbulance wobbles the rocket, too long of barrel, and drag comes into play.

I have been thinking of porting the end of my LAW barrel to help with turbulance.

I have figured out a way to make the rockets fly straight. I now use a sight and it is solid gold. Think about the sentance before, and you will figure it out.
But that is a secret I am keeping to myself. I have given enough hints for the savvy ones to figure it out. I like being able to hit a kill plate at 100yards.
Your site MUST be adjustable, and you need to be able to site it in, just like a rifle.

One more safety bit: A pop off relief is only going to relieve a certain amount of air. A regulator will pass more than the pop off releif will. You should also have a orifice inbetween the 2. I use a 1/8 inch orifice.
My orifice is a bushing with a hex head plug. I drill a hole (1/8 iinch) in the hex plug and screw it in the bushing (1/4 by 1/4) screw it in far enough so you can attach your connection fittings to the ends of the bushing. The hex head should be in the middle of the bushing. Now your rgulator will not exceeed your pop off.
We used to perform tests on gas meters using a Critical Flow test. A known amount of pressure with a fixed opening will pass xxxx amount of gas over a certain amount of time. (Run the gas at that pressure for that amount of time and compare to what the meter said)

SOCOJ is very knowledgable, so what he says is very good info, as I don't frequent this site too often.
I do come on here about 1 a week. So if you leave me a pm, I'll try to help with your questions, time permitting.

I would like to encourage all ballers to play fair and honorable on the field.
It is a drag to put for a lot of effort to get across a field and have people tell others where you are after they are "dead", or keep wiping, or not going back to the base and turning around short of it.
Hope to see you all on the field, and don't shoot me too bad.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:32 AM #39
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I understand the weight issue. It's why I haven't gone to that on a shoulder launcher yet. What resin is used on the fiber wrapping of the pvc (link?)? Are you gluing the pieces together first and then wrapping everything? I'd like to see the people in this thread who know what they're doing post some links to stuff so we can throw a design out there that is a no-brainer for safety.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:24 PM #40
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You can get the stuff at an auto parts store, even walmart has it.
You wrap fiberglass reinforcing tape then apply the resin after you have cleaned and glued your joints, allow joins to cure before handling.
More specific directions are on each container.
I do know what I'm doing.
There are several ways to make a launcher also. So specific directions would be vague at best.
I made 3 different sizes. Had a few design changes, ect..
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:16 PM #41
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I wasn't implying that you don't know what you're doing, I'm trying to motivate people who know better than most to post exactly what they did, where they got the parts, which specific parts they used so we don't have some knucklehead build an unsafe launcher and give the insurance companies a reason to kill anti-tanking (see OK DDay for what that looks like)
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:25 AM #42
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Originally Posted by stevebski View Post
I wasn't implying that you don't know what you're doing, I'm trying to motivate people who know better than most to post exactly what they did, where they got the parts, which specific parts they used so we don't have some knucklehead build an unsafe launcher and give the insurance companies a reason to kill anti-tanking (see OK DDay for what that looks like)
OK on the knowing stuff, I probably interpreted that wrong.
Specific plans would be hard to write. I am assuming the plans would have to be VERY specific for the people that were not familiar with pipe fitting.
Building one safely would not be for the average person who was not mechanically inclined. Instructions for that would be a small book.
Your right about the insurance companies, they would eat this up if stuff started blowing up. All the instances I heard of, the LAW's didn't have pop off reliefs. THIS IS NOT TO SAY HAVING A POP OFF IS THE GOLDEN FLEECE FOR SAFETY ON THESE. There are other things you need to understand also. PSI ratings, how to properly clean and glue PVC, not drilling holes in PVC, the right PVC, ect....
I think as a general statement, a lot of people think anyone can build one.
It's just building one safely that everyone can not do,.....without proper instruction.
I like long range shots, so mine has a larger stored energy area (air chamber) and longer barrel, and heavier.
But if a person was just going to take 50 yard shots, you could build a midget LAW which would be lighter.
Point is, plans for one would be player specific.

To give you an idea of the power of exploding PVC,there was a auto body shop using PVC dw for 120 psi air supply from compressor to 2 different buildings made of sheet metal. The PVC was exposed to sunlight 24/7 and had deteriorated, which caused the breech and bursting of the pipe. There were 3 inch holes ripped in the sheet metal over a 20ft section and cars inside had damage to paint with some of the light covers broken after the PVC had already gone through the metal. Imagine your face next to this when it burst. Enough said. I was called to inspect what happened and see if there was any damage to the utilities, so I seen this right after it had happened.

My advice is don't make a LAW if you are unsure of how to make one. They can become lethal quick.
I hear some knocking the safety (I always wonder what they actually know about the dangers aside from what they heard), and to a degree, they are right. But if you are familiar with gas principles and limitations of the material you use, a person can make a safe and operable LAW. I would never buy a homemade LAW from someone. You don't know what they used or how well it was constructed.

I do not make LAWs for other people, despite having several ask. I do not want the liability.
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