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Old 12-08-2008, 06:55 PM #22
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Originally Posted by xsport37 View Post
You can do whatever you want, but it's best if you enter your project with a mindset to challenge something, or prove something, rather than just to show how it works... unless of course that something is revolutionary in your mind.
Nothing revolutionary...
I was going to explain how the HD works then explain why the flash mem is better or what is better than flash mem.
That sound better? If not, any other ideas that are not paintball related?

Peace.


thanks so much for the help.
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:19 PM #23
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Originally Posted by twodayslate View Post
Nothing revolutionary...
I was going to explain how the HD works then explain why the flash mem is better or what is better than flash mem. ()
That sound better? If not, any other ideas that are not paintball related?

Peace.

thanks so much for the help.
that sounds pretty good, be sure to include holographic memory too. i just learned about it in my free time, soo awsome. that would be a great science project comparing the maximum storage density of different types of mediums.

PS: holographic memory can have a storage density of 4gigabits(512megabytes) of memory per cubic millimeter!
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:04 PM #24
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i tried to design my own paintball marker once, i drew up the schematic and everything, but never got off the blueprints due to my lack of money/materials. it was essentially a simplified singletube spyder. my engineering buds told me it was feasible but too expensive to make myself.
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:41 PM #25
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From what I've seen, changing from HPA to CO2 or vice versa changes the optimal dwell time. I don't know much about actual velocity differences, but the Dwell does seem to be affected, at least a little bit. Furthermore, I've noticed that some response triggers (Tippmanns) do not always function well on HPA.

Now, I'm no expert on this kind of thing. Not even close. Maybe there is something in "recharge rate" or pressure differences that can count for everything.

I mean maybe you really CAN assume that there is no real differences between the gases themselves, and that all of this really is just a result of uncontrolled variables. Like I said, I am NOT an expert. If there was a class that should have made this kind of thing obvious, I missed it.
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Old 12-10-2008, 12:23 AM #26
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FYI: Gasses under the same pressure will expand at the same rate (assuming atmospheric conditions are the same). Maybe you missed that class...
So why are there different expansion and compression tables for different gasses? I guess you missed that class.... or you didn't learn much if you took thermodynamics.

I think it would be an interesting project to do. It would require all the stages of good research. And if you want to go into doing thecalculations, I'm sure there are some of us here on the nation that could steer you in the right direction.

As far as the memory card idea, I dont think thats the greatest idea. All you would be doing is looking up a bunch of numbers that somebody else already figured out. No experiment. And chances are your hypothesis would be something that most people would already know.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:30 AM #27
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As far as the memory card idea, I dont think thats the greatest idea. All you would be doing is looking up a bunch of numbers that somebody else already figured out. No experiment. And chances are your hypothesis would be something that most people would already know.
I agree with this, just didn't feel like saying it lol... twodayslate you will have a hard time obtaining any kind of real data from the mentioned memory storage experiment unless you are able to develop (or find online) the software to accurately test this, and have some kind of benchmark in mind.

I'm not saying you have to do the "spudgun" test, but it will be much easier to obtain data from, and the variable you will be testing will only need one criteria to be measured...
For instance:
-In the case of gas, you measure speed
-In the case of projectile you measure speed initial and/or and range final (range final could take into effect the aerodynamic effects)
-In the case of damage, well you develop a benchmark for damage, and compare to that, or you declare one the least or most damaged and develop a matrix to compare different elements of damage to

Good luck either way, I know I had a lot of fun when I did my damage experiment. I mean really, shooting **** for an experiment...

Last edited by xsport37 : 12-10-2008 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 12-10-2008, 12:06 PM #28
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I had this http://www.thehalls-in-bfe.com/GGDT/index.html website and program showed to me when I was in the process of designing my pb gun. and when i got board with it I used different gasses at pb velocitys and I was expecting CO2 to shoot faster than air like it does in a tippmann. but no actually helium shoots fast than air.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:07 PM #29
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leafy^ if it was unregulated (probly) then co2 is higher pressure then hpa (assuming the standard hpa output of 8-850psi compared to the unregulated co2 which can expand over 1000 psi), but the lighter helium can move faster then co2 (hmm helium filled nitro tanks...)

also to whoever said the RT triggers dont work as good on hpa- same thing with any blowback design, the more dense co2 will leak less around the orings in the system creating the ability to run lower operating pressures... ask anyone with a super spyder, most people stick with co2 for reliability and lower pressures
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:11 PM #30
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the only reason CO2 give higher fps is because even if it is coming out of the tank at 800 psi then it will expand in the gun when it phase changes. thats why r/t trigger work better with CO2.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:14 PM #31
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the only reason CO2 give higher fps is because even if it is coming out of the tank at 800 psi then it will expand in the gun when it phase changes. thats why r/t trigger work better with CO2.
I don't think this is the only reason. I've never heard of someone having problems with an RT while using an anti siphon tank. Plus, liquid CO2 is the same pressure as unregulated CO2 gas.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:45 PM #32
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leafy^ wha? better explanation please... not trying to doubt you but you lost me somehow..

are you trying to say when you pull the trigger and the hammer hits the valve it releases liquid with the converted air and can therefore continue to expand even more at a given pressure?
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:46 PM #33
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Thanks for wippen out the GGDT leafy. The OP can use that for "calculated" results for his experiment, as it's always good to calculate your percent deviation from calculated (GGDT results) to experimental (actually putting the gas in the spud gun and measuring the velocity with a Chrony)

You're on your own with the R/T convo tho lol.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:48 PM #34
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its not actually completely liquid its weird how it is I dont fully understand it even I havent delved that far into fluid dynamics yet.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:52 PM #35
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It's not liquid really at all, it's just cold CO2, and as most anything (cept fo water) is when it's cold, it's more dense, more compact. So when it contact's all the surface of the chambers it's in, heat exchange takes place, not phase change (unless its really cold) and it warms up, getting less dense, increasing pressure. That's what I gather from leafy's argument at least.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:54 PM #36
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It's not liquid really at all, it's just cold CO2, and as most anything (cept fo water) is when it's cold, it's more dense, more compact. So when it contact's all the surface of the chambers it's in, heat exchange takes place, not phase change (unless its really cold) and it warms up, getting less dense, increasing pressure. That's what I gather from leafy's argument at least.
yeah there are also werid funky matter states at high pressures like you can have liquid water well about 100* C just under high pressure.
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:17 PM #37
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Okay, guys, I dunno what classes yall have had, but it is perfectly normal to have liquid water well above 100*C, just like it is normal to have water as a vapor well under 100*C. Although these these phenomena are very destructive when dealing with machinery such as pumps and turbines, they happen everyday.

So, let take a look at water. At room temperature, which is about 20*C, it only takes 2.3 kPa (.3 psi, saturation pressure) to keep it a liquid. Under that, and your boiling. Now lets go to 100*C, which is the boiling point. Here the saturation pressure is 101.4 kPa(14.7 psi), atmospheric presure. But anything under this pressure, and it will boil. So lets consider water at
180*C. Boiling for sure, right? Wrong. The saturation pressure is 1002.8 kPa
(145.4 psi). So any pressure Above this, and it is liquid. This is one of the reasons that boilers in industry are turned up so hot.

The same thing with CO2 occurs, just with different numbers. CO2 is a bit strange, though, because it does not naturally appear in liquid form. At atmospheric pressure, it sublimes, which means it goes straight from a solid to a gass, and vice verca.

So, how does this all apply to paintball? Well, look at it this way. At room temperature, CO2 is at 20*C. Now before anybody flames because CO2 is a "cold gas", it only gets "cold" when it expands. But in a tank that has just been filled, the pressure can be up to 3000psi. Trust me, this number is huge. So, it is compressed into a liquid. The problem with this is if we get the liquid into our guns from a poor setup, the CO2 goes from being about 2500psi, on average, to 14.7 psi. And this happens instantly. So I dont think I have to tell you how high the rate of expansion is here. If you want that explained, I will so ask, but I wont if I dont have to.

So, why do expansion chambers work? Because it gives the CO2 a chance to expand by giving it extra volume. The higher volume of the system, assuming the mass is constant, means lower pressure. So by the time the liquid CO2 fills the chamber, it starts expanding. The remote line works the same way.

Anti-siphon simply keeps the liquid from leaving the bottle in the first place.

Quote:
It's not liquid really at all, it's just cold CO2, and as most anything (cept fo water) is when it's cold, it's more dense, more compact. So when it contact's all the surface of the chambers it's in, heat exchange takes place, not phase change (unless its really cold) and it warms up, getting less dense, increasing pressure. That's what I gather from leafy's argument at least.
Phase change does occur. And so does heat exchange, but not in the way you are talking about. The heat exchange comes in when the gas expands. When it does this, it must absorb energy. This is why CO2 is so cold. And yes, much of the CO2 in the bottle is liquid, especially when you first fill it. And just because it warms up doesnt mean it is less dense. In a constant volume situation, it doesnt matter. Remember, DENSITY=MASS/VOLUME

Quote:
yeah there are also werid funky matter states at high pressures like you can have liquid water well about 100* C just under high pressure.
There are only fou states of matter. Solid, Liquid, Gas, and Plasma. And the last rarely occurs here on Earth.

Dont worry Leafy, all of it will become clear when you take Thermodynamics.
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:58 PM #38
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Wow, this thread is getting intense.

The paintball lab is harder and more expensive (maybe). There are so many variables to take into account. And it is winter time so the balls will be more brittle so I can't do an accurate damage reading. I also believe CO2 is not as accurate/good in the cold. How would you measure distance? That might be the hardest/most time consuming part (unless I shoot like 5 feet, but that aint fun!). I do have a chrono though.

I am looking into the benchmark reader. I am also going to take apart the drives so I should find some interesting things there.

@Leafy: nice site. a lot of useful info. nice app too.
@xsport: thanks for all the useful info, i feel bad that I am not going to do the paintball lab. :[
@reaper: learned about that in chemistry last year. We boiled water at room temperature. I don't remember if we decrease the pressure with a vacuum or increased it. from the comments it looked like we increased it. :/
@betasniper: will look into that, hope it isn't expensive.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:01 PM #39
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I'll send your thanks over to whoever gave that to me from custom guns (was it LX?).
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:17 PM #40
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oh, i thought you made it. :]
yes, please pass on the good praise.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:24 PM #41
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he didnt make it either he just showed me it when i was working on the design of my gun.
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:03 AM #42
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I don't remember if we decrease the pressure with a vacuum or increased it. from the comments it looked like we increased it. :/
You would have deceased the pressure. Not to mention, a vacuum pressure is defined as a pressure below atmospheric pressure. The phenomena that ocurred when you did the experiment was called "cavitation". Like I said earlier, this is deadly to pumps, turbines, popellers, and anything else of that nature.
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