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Old 12-05-2008, 04:32 AM #1
Nicky T
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Re: Efficiency for Dummies!

Morning all,

I've read a few posts from fellow Geo-shooters who are getting poor efficiency out of their markers so thought that it was high time to create an idiots guide on how to set up your Geo marker more efficiently, so here goes

Now before we get into how to correctly set up your Geo, there are a couple of criteria that you should always adhere to in order to give yourself a fighting chance of getting decent efficiency figures:

- Correct Lubrication. Basically if your Geo is not correctly lubed you won't get as many shots out of it as you could have had. Don't be a dummy - lube it correctly and you're already on your way to better efficiency!

- Paint 2 Barrel match. Although the Geo is an open-bolt marker; correctly sizing the paint that you are shooting to match the barrel that you are using will give you an advantage when it comes to efficiency.

- Climate. Playing in a warmer climate will yield better results than playing in a colder climate (efficiency wise). You're also more likely to get a tan and see scantily clad women so i don't really see a downside to living/playing in a warmer part of the world, especially efficiency wise.

- Type of paint. Some paints chrono higher than others. This could be linked to size, materials used, density, sphericalness (if that's even a word) or any other mystical factors but if you (or your team) is confined to shooting a specific brand it might be worth sampling the paints they have on offer and finding one that suits you best.

- VVC Screw. This Changes the volume of air in the Valve Chamber. Smaller volume = better efficiency so wind this bad boy all the way in to make your marker most efficient.

Still with me so far? Once you've checked out all of the above it's now time to head down to the Chrono with your Geo, at least a couple of pods of paint, your hex keys, loader and a tank full of air (and your goggles of course!) so that you can follow the proceed below to set up your Geo

1. Chrono the marker as it is until you reach the desired velocity; lets assume you want to shoot at approximately 290fps.
2. Remove the rubber grip screws on the right hand side of the Geo and push the set-up pushbutton on your circuit board to enter the set-up menu.
3. Scroll through the menu and "Unlock" the circuit board.
4. Close up the grips again so that you don't loose the three screws that you're about to drop!
5. As the marker is now unlocked go into the DWELL parameter and lower the dwell by 1.0ms from 12.5ms (the factory setting) to 11.5ms.
6. Chronograph the marker and check that the velocity has remained approximately the same.
7. Again go into the DWELL parameter and lower the dwell by 1.0ms.
8. Chronograph the marker again to check that the velocity has remained approximately the same.
9. Repeat steps 7 and 8 until the velocity starts to drop.
10. When you reach this stage your DWELL is set too low to achieve the velocity you require. You must now raise your DWELL by 0.5ms from its current setting.
11. Chronograph the marker again to check that the velocity has returned to the desired value. If it has not then increase your DWELL again in 0.5ms increments until it does.
12. When you are content with the velocity readings, exit the DWELL parameter and "lock" the marker so that you are tournament legal.
13. You have now sweetspotted your Geo's DWELL to maximise its efficiency at that particular Inline Reg setting.
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Old 12-05-2008, 05:32 AM #2
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:14 AM #3
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Nicky...did you ever get around to finding out what pressure you were running to achieve 290fps with the VVC all the way in and that dwell of 8 you run in your setup?
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:34 AM #4
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Like an dummy i forgot to do it before i let Jack mess about with it! Doh!
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:40 AM #5
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No problem. I'll give it a go this week and post up my results. Curious to know how much of a pressure increase is needed to compensate for the low dwell time and vvc all the way in...and if the increase of added pressure to the bolt and ball is worth the efficiency gains.
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:53 AM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shecki View Post
...and if the increase of added pressure to the bolt and ball is worth the efficiency gains.
I'd say so as i didn't break a single ball whilst shooting my Geo set up like that.
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:59 AM #7
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Plus, if you tune the dwell as Nick suggests above, you may not get 8ms as your sweetspot dwell, and in theory it should not effect your operating pressure. If you chrono first, and then lower the dwell, then you should be running the same in-line pressure for the same velocity, just a lower dwell setting.
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:18 AM #8
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Ahhh, right on...makes sense. Just a possible higher sweet spot before it drops off. Is there anything "speacial" Nicky may have had to do to obtain that low sweet spot. Things such as matching o-rings to the bolt or can or anything like that?
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:21 AM #9
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Quote:
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Ahhh, right on...makes sense. Just a possible higher sweet spot before it drops off. Is there anything "speacial" Nicky may have had to do to obtain that low sweet spot. Things such as matching o-rings to the bolt or can or anything like that?
I did nothing "special" at all, just took my Geo and started messing about with the dwell. All of the other settings are factory standard.

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Old 12-05-2008, 09:34 AM #10
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The basic principle is that you need a certain air pressure to get up to velocity, along with a certain volume of gas - however, the firing chamber may hold more air than necessary, and so long dwell settings allow more air to be released than is strictly necessary; basically, you are just wasting air.

So, you eliminate some of that excess volume with the VVC (that's what it is there for after all ), chrono to velocity, and then start cutting down on the length of time that the spool valve is open by reducing the dwell, which will in turn cut down on the amount of air released.

As Nicky described, if the ball has accelerated up to speed, and has left the barrel, *before all the air has vented from the firing chamber*, then reducing dwell will have little or no effect on velocity *in respect to the air released after the ball has fired*. Under those particular circumstances, reducing dwell to the minimum value that maintains the same velocity will instantly save air.

The only downside I see is that velocity, and as a consequence, consistency, becomes very dependent on the accuracy of the dwell time. So you want a fresh battery and to keep your bolt kit well maintained to keep electronic and mechanical dwell under control.

Another approach would be to physically reduce the volume of the firing chamber to the required amount (larger VVC, or a "top hat" style mod), rather than using dwell to control the amount of air released, and leave the dwell a little higher to ensure that the marker remains consistent. This is while still leaving your pressure set to the original value when you chrono'd the marker, and altering the volume of the firing chamber to achieve the exact same velocity.

The other approach, which I think is what people were expecting, would be to experiment with the balance between pressure and volume - cutting the volume down even further, and then compensating for any loss of velocity by increasing the pressure. Seems to work for DMs, but then they have an LPR to save the solenoid if you set the pressue *too* high! Not necessarily the best approach with the Geo.....

Last edited by Uziel Gal : 12-07-2008 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 12-05-2008, 10:04 AM #11
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Ha Nicky called us idiots LOL
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Old 12-05-2008, 01:59 PM #12
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Ha Nicky called us idiots LOL
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Old 12-07-2008, 05:56 AM #13
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More of a dummy actually

Anyway back on track, how many of you tried what i suggested at the weekend and what results did you get (efficiency and settings wise)?

Nicky
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:37 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicky T View Post
More of a dummy actually

Anyway back on track, how many of you tried what i suggested at the weekend and what results did you get (efficiency and settings wise)?

Nicky
i did but when I held a lane i got dropoff like mad. i just put my vvc and dwell back to stock and it shot great
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Old 12-07-2008, 01:54 PM #15
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Quote:
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i did but when I held a lane i got dropoff like mad. i just put my vvc and dwell back to stock and it shot great
Sounds like you'd set your dwell too low to me!
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Old 12-07-2008, 02:07 PM #16
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Yup. Keep in mind you still need to open the marker up to ramp after you get it set.

Lowering the dwell and having it stay a constant velocity at a ball a second is a little different then at a 13.3 ramping speed.
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Old 12-07-2008, 02:26 PM #17
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Quote:
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Sounds like you'd set your dwell too low to me!
it was down to 10.5 and still reading fine over the chrono, just in long strings there was dropoff.

i set it up exactly how you described (but before you posted this) i put it back to stock and it shot great. no biggie.

i'm getting a full magna and 3 pods off of about 1700-1800 psi so i'm happy with the efficiency so far. the gun is shooting better than any other spool valve i've owned.
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Last edited by bulzeye : 12-07-2008 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 12-07-2008, 09:40 PM #18
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Practice today
VVC all the way in, Dwell at 8.5 , 285 FPS. 68/45 tank 10 pods still had around 1000psi in tank... Not one Ball Break with 3 cases today.... No drop off at all!!!!!!! Nicky T is the man!!!!!!!!!

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Old 12-14-2008, 06:53 PM #19
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Im still breaking in my Geo...figured to post my results from using it today.

Still stock settings...68/4500...filled to 4k though. I was getting almost 7 pods and a hopper. Towards the end of the last pod...I was getting a lot of dropoff. So, with that extra 500psi...I prob could have gotten a full 7 pods and hopper. VVC all the way in. FPS 290-298

So, im still waiting to break it in more and I will start messing with the dwell and see what I can get.

Also...I went through 2 cases and not 1 broken ball in 40 degree weather. Was using a .685 barrel with Marbs.

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Old 12-14-2008, 08:29 PM #20
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Sorry to bring up this correlation again (I'm sure Eclipse hates it), but this is a
similar method for doing the same thing as the old Ion "tuning" guides like this:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2149725

IMO, this method (set via velocity, instead of pressure) is a better one
because with the Ion method, it requires the user to "randomly" choose the
pressure they want to operate at.

But the Ion guides always suggest adding 2-3ms onto the "minimum" value. I
think this is a good rule of thumb in this case as well. This extra ms or two of
dwell is what helps to avoid the drop off during long strings at high ROF.

Thus my only recommendation to change in the original guide would be to
suggest at least 1-2ms added onto the point at which velocity begins
dropping off.
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Old 12-14-2008, 10:44 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Sorry to bring up this correlation again (I'm sure Eclipse hates it), but this is a
similar method for doing the same thing as the old Ion "tuning" guides like this:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2149725

IMO, this method (set via velocity, instead of pressure) is a better one
because with the Ion method, it requires the user to "randomly" choose the
pressure they want to operate at.

But the Ion guides always suggest adding 2-3ms onto the "minimum" value. I
think this is a good rule of thumb in this case as well. This extra ms or two of
dwell is what helps to avoid the drop off during long strings at high ROF.

Thus my only recommendation to change in the original guide would be to
suggest at least 1-2ms added onto the point at which velocity begins
dropping off.
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