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Old 04-20-2009, 02:42 PM #1
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Why did Jesus perform miracles?

And why did God talk directly to Adam, Job, Noah, Moses, etc.?

If we are to make a decision on the existence or non-existence of God based entirely on "faith," why did God find it necessary to communicate directly with people back then? And why did he only ever talk to people in the Middle East, but not in Africa, America, or Asia?

With the rapid erosion of "faith" that is taking place in this world today, now almost 2000 years since he last graced us with his physical presence, isn't it about time for another visit?
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Originally posted by matt00iconoclast:
"there are variables outside of physics that will affect the flight of the ball"
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:49 PM #2
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While we're at it, here's another question:

Why did Jesus have to "die for our sins" in order for us to be "saved". If God is all powerful, couldn't he just snap his proverbial fingers and declare us "saved" (provided, of course, we believe in him and follow his rules)? Why is it really a sacrifice for someone who for 100% certain knows he is God and that he will be risen to Heaven to "die" for us?
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Originally posted by matt00iconoclast:
"there are variables outside of physics that will affect the flight of the ball"
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:50 PM #3
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because that would be too convenient, duh.

honestly this is one of the questions i ask most frequently. most christians will tell you that God's relationship with people was different back then.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:52 PM #4
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because that would be too convenient, duh.

honestly this is one of the questions i ask most frequently. most christians will tell you that God's relationship with people was different back then.
Perhaps he should have stuck with what worked. Notice how, the more time passes by, the fewer people (percentage-wise, of course) believe?
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Originally posted by matt00iconoclast:
"there are variables outside of physics that will affect the flight of the ball"
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Old 04-20-2009, 05:15 PM #5
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That's because we are nearing the end-times. As more and more people lose faith (which I'd argue is not necessarily the case) it is a clear sign that the faithful should prepare for rapture.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:35 PM #6
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If I were to tell you God spoke audibly to me would you believe me?As far as believers are concerned,the populus is different and the ability to communicate world wide has exploded in recent years;so the understanding or knowledge of who believes is more available.The bible does teach straight is the way and narrow is the path that leads to life and few there are that find it.It also speaks of a great falling away,so where that puts us today depends on how you interpet end times prophecy.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:41 PM #7
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If I were to tell you God spoke audibly to me would you believe me?As far as believers are concerned,the populus is different and the ability to communicate world wide has exploded in recent years;so the understanding or knowledge of who believes is more available.The bible does teach straight is the way and narrow is the path that leads to life and few there are that find it.It also speaks of a great falling away,so where that puts us today depends on how you interpet end times prophecy.
Spock's question, I believe, is simply this: why doesn't God speak to the entire world, perhaps using some sort of supernatural world-wide PA system? He IS, after all, God. Surely an omnipotent being could manage something as simple as talking loudly enough that the entire world could hear and understand. If he loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved, wouldn't this be the surest way to ensure that this happens?
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:46 PM #8
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It didn't work for adam and eve; so we probably would go about our merry way as well.Another way to look at it;say the bible is real and the jews really did see Jesus do all the miracles he did;and yet they still rejected and crucified him.
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:56 PM #9
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If God is omnipotent, than there is no reason He would create us.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:13 PM #10
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He did it in the middle east because Israelites were gods chosen people.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:34 PM #11
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It didn't work for adam and eve; so we probably would go about our merry way as well.Another way to look at it;say the bible is real and the jews really did see Jesus do all the miracles he did;and yet they still rejected and crucified him.
Do you know why that is? It's because THE OLD TESTAMENT TELLS THEM TO! A man claiming to be the son of God would have been a blasphemer of the WORST kind among Jews, and if you read through the Old Testament in its entirety, you would realize that by this point, the Jews were likely tired of being smitten, grounded, punished, and put on time out every other century for not doing something God told them to do, or for doing something God told them not to do. Therefore, they did the only rational thing ( ) and had the self-titled Messiah executed.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:48 PM #12
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Except they were expecting the messiah,see even Herod knew to ask where the Christ was to be born...the jews just wanted an earthly king and could not see their messiah for who He was,is and will be.They wanted a david or the such to deliver them from rome and physical bondage.They were caught up so much in their traditions and their spirituality that they were blinded to what God's Word was really saying.Jesus even said:if you can't believe my word at least believe because of my works....that was my paraphrase.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:51 PM #13
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Because organized religion is ultimately illogical.

The reason why classical theists state that Jesus died for our sins, is to ultimately make you feel guilty. If you follow the progression of many religions, they must first start off by telling you that you're guilty. Next, you are in debt, and ultimately, it comes to the stage of sacrifice. The ultimate goal of religion is to bring down man to the level where they are ready to sacrifice what it is that makes us individuals.

Most logical people reject this line of reasoning, since they feel that determinism is wrong. Basically if you believe the tenets of what I said above (About how Jesus died for your sins, therefore you're in debt to God because he gave His only son because you are a dirty sinner, and therefore you must love Jesus and God, etc.) you're basically a determinist, since it makes no logical sense for God to lay blame on the entire race of human beings before they were even born. We weren't there to help save Jesus when he was put on the cross, or to let him die, so we had no choice.

And then there's the whole, if God is omnipotent, and if he's so deterministic, why would he determine to kill his own son? Why didn't he intervene, or you know, alter the course of history so that nothing killed his son?

So many logical loopholes in religion, it would take an eternity to point them all out.

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Originally Posted by wavesport001 View Post
That's because we are nearing the end-times. As more and more people lose faith (which I'd argue is not necessarily the case) it is a clear sign that the faithful should prepare for rapture.
If that's the case, rapture should have come 1700 years ago, when there was a wide-spread questioning, and denial of religion, and the rise of Reason during the Enlightenment. It's 300 years later, no signs of 'rapture', how sure are you that it is coming now?

Last edited by Furious Ge0rge : 04-21-2009 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:00 PM #14
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It didn't work for adam and eve; so we probably would go about our merry way as well.Another way to look at it;say the bible is real and the jews really did see Jesus do all the miracles he did;and yet they still rejected and crucified him.
At least we'd have a fair chance and something concrete to go on, rather than relying on many layers of hearsay.

He obviously did all those miracles for a reason: to convince people of his divinity. Why is it that WE are less likely to need convincing?
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Originally posted by matt00iconoclast:
"there are variables outside of physics that will affect the flight of the ball"
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:30 PM #15
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If I were to tell you God spoke audibly to me would you believe me?
i believe thats called schizophrenia, its pretty serious.
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:34 PM #16
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If I were to tell you God spoke audibly to me would you believe me?As far as believers are concerned,the populus is different and the ability to communicate world wide has exploded in recent years;so the understanding or knowledge of who believes is more available.The bible does teach straight is the way and narrow is the path that leads to life and few there are that find it.It also speaks of a great falling away,so where that puts us today depends on how you interpet end times prophecy.
No, I wouldn't, just like I do not believe that the Bible is the word of any kind of God. Why not, you ask? Why should I?
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Originally posted by matt00iconoclast:
"there are variables outside of physics that will affect the flight of the ball"
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:06 PM #17
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Originally Posted by Furious Ge0rge View Post
Most logical people reject this line of reasoning, since they feel that determinism is wrong. Basically if you believe the tenets of what I said above (About how Jesus died for your sins, therefore you're in debt to God because he gave His only son because you are a dirty sinner, and therefore you must love Jesus and God, etc.) you're basically a determinist, since it makes no logical sense for God to lay blame on the entire race of human beings before they were even born. We weren't there to help save Jesus when he was put on the cross, or to let him die, so we had no choice.

And then there's the whole, if God is omnipotent, and if he's so deterministic, why would he determine to kill his own son? Why didn't he intervene, or you know, alter the course of history so that nothing killed his son?
A sacrifice doesn't need saving. In fact saving (withholding) a sacrifice contradicts it meaning.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:23 PM #18
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A sacrifice doesn't need saving. In fact saving (withholding) a sacrifice contradicts it meaning.
...what? Or are you arguing semantics on a completely unrelated note?
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:26 PM #19
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Your post reads as though God is angry that His son got killed when He graced this earth. Christ was sent as a sacrifice, He was not killed because He couldn't escape it.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:31 PM #20
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My logic still stands, in either situation. Why would God send his son to Earth just to be sacrificed and then essentially 'blame' man? He wants us to sacrifice ourselves because he sacrificed his only son, and we had no say in the matter. That's like me cutting my wrists, and then blaming you for making me do it. That's illogical.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:51 PM #21
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My logic still stands, in either situation. Why would God send his son to Earth just to be sacrificed and then essentially 'blame' man?
No it doesn't, you are still getting the bolded part backwards. A sacrifice is a gift given, not a debt incurred.
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