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Old 11-19-2008, 05:51 PM #232
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I can see the point your trying to make and it is valed. But you really have no backing....Supose i call shens. Prove to me 90% of the pros cheat

Its also funny your gonna try and tell me wut my gun is shooting.

Last edited by PBNBallA : 11-19-2008 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:14 PM #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBNBallA View Post
I can see the point your trying to make and it is valed. But you really have no backing....Supose i call shens. Prove to me 90% of the pros cheat

Its also funny your gonna try and tell me wut my gun is shooting.
Suppose that I call shens. Prove to me that you are more qualified to give an educated opinion about ROF and semi-auto than Chris.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post
Which I base on my computer engineering education, training and experience coupled with 14 years in the sport, and extensive conversations with the guys who design and program the guns and the professional players who use them.
To summarize the general situation, you (PBNBallA) are arguing with a man that has a background in computers and experience working with the very people that design the boards you think are flawless, not to mention the pros that use them. Do you have an engineering degree? Have you spoken with professional players or board engineers? What puts you in a position that allows you to simply say "prove it" rather than proving your own points? Take a look through this thread. You have made several posts with no factual backing, and seem to think that simply denying the truth in Raehl's posts is a valid argument.
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:33 PM #234
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Oh my goodness, I think he just got owned.

So anyways, lets stop with all of this "skill/no skill" thing.

PSP is more fun to watch on a webcast than NPPL.

/thread for the sake of the people getting OWNED by Raehl
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:39 PM #235
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honestly...if you think that twitching your fingers back and forward in a rhythm is a skill, you have much greater things to worry about than playing paintball. I dont see how it's a skill for gods sake -- it's not like "the pros" have little dumbells and weights they use to train their fingers with.

And the only argument i can think of is a pianist: they have to be able to do that same task efficiently, however 81 keys is much more technical than a single trigger.
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:03 PM #236
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What I find interesting about the whole 7-man vs. XBall thing is how often those who prefer 7-man fall back on reasons that are absolute bunk and ignore the real reasons 7-man is different from XBall.

Statements that are false:

"Semi-auto has more skill!" - false - with modern tech, how fast you shoot is based on the gun/board, not the player, period.
"XBall has no strategy!/XBall players are just robots!/Anybody can be coached to win in XBall!" - Obviously false. If it were true, there would be pro sponsored coaches and not pro-sponsored players.

And you will often see me attacking that reasoning, because it's, frankly, wrong.

So let me help you 7-man fans out with VALID reasons why you might prefer 7-man:

- 7 players on the field is strategically more intensive than 5
- Field dimensions/player numbers provide more break-out options
- Format demands absolute consistency - mistakes can be devastating
- 7 players allows for more swing during games (it's easier to come back from a 2 player deficit with 7 players than it is with 5)
- Greater variety of opponents (get to play 8 intead of 4)
- Lower ABSOLUTE costs (cost per event vs. cost per minute)
- Allows greater impact of technology (I think this is a bad thing, but you might not)

I'm sure there's more.

While I'm definitely a proponent of XBall (Well, any timed format really) I'm not here to say 7-man is "worse". It's just different. I do want people to give XBall a fair shake though, and all that "trigger skill"/"robot" stuff is just bunk.

- Chris
Honestly, the reason I like NPPL better is nothing to do with 7 man. Its the point system. You get points for staying alive,you get points for eliminations, you get points for first flag pulls and hangs etc... Its exactly why I hate Xball.By the way, timing should not be a part of paintball. Its like watching football and after each play stopping the clock because of a penalty. Its stupid and doesn't belong. I do however like the psp 5 man. They use a point system.
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:27 PM #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eforcegtid00d View Post
Suppose that I call shens. Prove to me that you are more qualified to give an educated opinion about ROF and semi-auto than Chris.


To summarize the general situation, you (PBNBallA) are arguing with a man that has a background in computers and experience working with the very people that design the boards you think are flawless, not to mention the pros that use them. Do you have an engineering degree? Have you spoken with professional players or board engineers? What puts you in a position that allows you to simply say "prove it" rather than proving your own points? Take a look through this thread. You have made several posts with no factual backing, and seem to think that simply denying the truth in Raehl's posts is a valid argument.
the fact that he has all this experence and all this backround and cant even make a valid point seems kinda odd dont you think? Bet yet he justifys with ...
Grab any gun out of a Pro player's hands. You'll need to ask them to turn on the cheater mode for you though.
and i have proven my point of view, many times over

/thread

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Old 11-19-2008, 07:56 PM #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBNBallA View Post
the fact that he has all this experence and all this backround and cant even make a valid point seems kinda odd dont you think? Bet yet he justifys with ...
Grab any gun out of a Pro player's hands. You'll need to ask them to turn on the cheater mode for you though.
and i have proven my point of view, many times over

/thread
You just proved what I said. You avoided the question and simply rejected what was posted before you. I don't need to ask you why you did it - the answer is obvious. You would embarrass yourself because your answer to each and every question about your experience and training would be "no".

You have yet to prove anything aside from your posting habits here.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:09 PM #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBNBallA View Post
I can see the point your trying to make and it is valed. But you really have no backing....Supose i call shens. Prove to me 90% of the pros cheat

Its also funny your gonna try and tell me wut my gun is shooting.
He didn't say that just 90% of pros cheat (even though a lot do). He said that 90% of guns don't shoot true semi and either bounce or add shots. Your gun probably does the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBNBallA View Post
the fact that he has all this experence and all this backround and cant even make a valid point seems kinda odd dont you think? Bet yet he justifys with ...
Grab any gun out of a Pro player's hands. You'll need to ask them to turn on the cheater mode for you though.
and i have proven my point of view, many times over

/thread
He has made many valid points, you just fail to understand them.

/you
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:24 PM #240
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Originally Posted by eforcegtid00d View Post
You just proved what I said. You avoided the question and simply rejected what was posted before you. I don't need to ask you why you did it - the answer is obvious. You would embarrass yourself because your answer to each and every question about your experience and training would be "no".

You have yet to prove anything aside from your posting habits here.

lol iv been playing this game for sometime my self, well before 04 since around 99 if your going to point out my join date. I just didnt bother to awnser such a nonsense question from someone such as ur self. Its pretty plain to see, he has no real backing behind his post's idk if your just dumb or dont want to admit it. After setting him str8 that semi does infact involve skill, n then we debate the accuracy by volume dissusion. Agian il point out the fact he has YET to simply provide me with any real proof besides PROS CHEAT!!!! Keep trying d00d
and PS me and him were haveing a normal discussion with out any hostility BEFORE you joined the thread slick. Two diffrences of opinion talking it over. Before you decided to be a cocksmack.
If hes got such a general knowladge and has so much industry experience he can atleast prove it logically right?

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Old 11-19-2008, 08:31 PM #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by things2auction View Post
He didn't say that just 90% of pros cheat (even though a lot do). He said that 90% of guns don't shoot true semi and either bounce or add shots. Your gun probably does the same thing.



He has made many valid points, you just fail to understand them.

/you

And agian, id like to see how he knows such a fact, where he comes up with such a number. And no my gun does NOT probably do the same thing. nice try tho, Il hapily take a vid if youd like. And just to put it out thier, I use both psp and semi often, just incase ne of you think im some kind of semi fanboy
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:32 PM #242
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Originally Posted by PBNBallA View Post
lol iv been playing this game for sometime my self, well before 04 if your going to point out my join date. I just didnt bother to awnser such a nonsense question from someone such as ur self. Its pretty plain to see, he has no real backing behind his post's idk if your just dumb or dont want to admit it. After setting him str8 that semi does infact involve skill, n then we debate the accuracy by volume dissusion. Agian il point out the fact he has YET to simply provide me with any real proof besides PROS CHEAT!!!! Keep trying d00d

If hes got such a general knowladge and has so much industry experience he can atleast prove it logically right?
Two posts and you still have yet to answer the questions. No, I don't care about your join date. It is not representative of your experience in paintball - much like many others here, we both joined the this site years after playing our first game. The join date is just a join date.

Read the previous posts again - you will find that Chris has used factual backing and you have not. In fact, in your post above this one you just admitted to being uncertain about the legitimacy of your argument.
"And no my gun does NOT probably do the same thing."

I'll put this in plain view for you to answer - please do not avoid these questions for a third post in a row.

Do you have a degree in engineering, particularly electrical?
Have you discussed this topic at length with several designers of the boards you claim do not add shots?
Have you discussed this topic at length with several professional players?
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:37 PM #243
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i used the word probably because thats how the orginal poster used it. AND I QUOTE"your gun PROBABLY does the same"

To awnser your questions
No
No and
sorta

First, I dont need a engennering degree to understand a board, Like i said iv been in the game for a while i have a fairly good grasp.
Second, I never said the board DOESNT add shots or is NOT capable of, I do however find it hard 2belive that every gun used in NPPL play is useing this feature. I did say yes most guns are probebly useing some little bounce and then also said right after, its still harder to walk with minimal bounce then PSP-(the original discussion)
I have discussed this topic before, with other players/personel with their own opinion ect. But no.. Not serverl pro players.

Agian i do not doubt this guyz experience in the game, that is not in question. Hes reasoning behing the subject is.

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Old 11-19-2008, 08:55 PM #244
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So let's summarize your experience here.

You have no education in engineering. You have not spoken with board developers. You have not spoken with professional players about cheating. What are you doing contradicting someone that has done all of the above while discussing these topics?

Despite what you want to believe, ROF is a selling point for many guns and the manufacturer that can best produce the illusion of a simply faster gun can gain an advantage. As stated before, this can be achieved through bounce or code. Being the gun whore that I am, I have experience with just about every mainstream high-end on the market today and many guns from previous years. I can tell you right now that at factory settings, almost every single one of them will bounce in semi. Increase the debounce setting (and some guns do not have this feature in stock boards) and you just might get true semi-auto. What you need to remember is that the NPPL refs can exercise a certain discretion when dealing with penalties much like state police can choose which cars they want to pull over on the tollway even if the entire pack is speeding. They aren't interested in the guys going 65mph - they want to catch the guys that are doing 80+. Refs aren't going to give you a penalty for a negligible level of bounce unless you flip an attitude. When I say negligible, I mean factory settings. They want to catch the guys that have excessive ROF assist.

What you don't seem to understand is that even if a manufacturer does not deliberately code their boards to artificially increase your ROF in semi-auto, that does not mean that they won't turn a blind eye toward bounce from the factory. I don't know about you, but I sincerely doubt that the majority of players in the NPPL fiddle with debounce or try to get as close to pure semi as possible. They have no reason to decrease their ROF when they can get away with stock boards in the NPPL.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:03 PM #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevens23 View Post
Honestly, the reason I like NPPL better is nothing to do with 7 man. Its the point system. You get points for staying alive,you get points for eliminations, you get points for first flag pulls and hangs etc... Its exactly why I hate Xball.By the way, timing should not be a part of paintball. Its like watching football and after each play stopping the clock because of a penalty. Its stupid and doesn't belong. I do however like the psp 5 man. They use a point system.
See, now THOSE are all good reasons to like the NPPL setup better. Nice work.

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Old 11-19-2008, 10:34 PM #246
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Thats prolly true man, i think this has gone a little 2 far. I was shareing my view on the situation, trigger skill/acuracy by volume. witch at one point was topic of thread. No harm no foul.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:08 PM #247
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Actually the original thread topic was whether or not NPPL was boring to watch. It had nothing to do with "trigger skill".
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:56 PM #248
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right but was relevant at one point
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:05 AM #249
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i'll admit the games did get somewhat better as the event went on. i'm just not the sit and wait kind of person. thats probably why i get shot alot...i dont have the patience to just wait for some one to move through my lane.

And i dont know if this is total b.s. or not, but a while back a rather popular master tech told me that the fastest the human brain can control two fingers to shoot is 19bps. anything higher than that is electronically added, sometimes without your control. now i've never found anything to prove or disprove this (i havent looked much either) but just throwing it up there...its interesting if its true.

horray paintball
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:10 AM #250
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They had a truely semi-auto gun hooked up to a computer at an NPPL event a few years back and were giving a prize to the fastest fingers. A vast majority of people who tried barely broke 10 bps, with little bursts (Like half a second) getting around 15 or something like that. The guy who won was some pro that maintained like 15 or 16 for a second or two.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:38 AM #251
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i'll admit the games did get somewhat better as the event went on. i'm just not the sit and wait kind of person. thats probably why i get shot alot...i dont have the patience to just wait for some one to move through my lane.

And i dont know if this is total b.s. or not, but a while back a rather popular master tech told me that the fastest the human brain can control two fingers to shoot is 19bps. anything higher than that is electronically added, sometimes without your control. now i've never found anything to prove or disprove this (i havent looked much either) but just throwing it up there...its interesting if its true.

horray paintball
I've heard from someone, though it's about as vague as yours, that the human body can contract the muscles in a finger 11.5 times a second, but I don't know how that relates to two fingers, or if it just totals 23 pulls per second or what.
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:29 PM #252
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They are 2 different leagues.

Extremely basic break-dowm

PSP (Paintball Sports Promotions)= X-Ball and 5 man. 125ft x 75ftfield Uses PSP ramping and NXL full auto. www.pspevents.com

NPPL (National Professional Paintball League) = 7-man and Divisonal 5-man. 150ft x 65(?)ft, uses Semi-Auto only www.nppl.com
Dude, all of your field dimensions are completely incorrect!
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