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Old 11-19-2008, 01:51 PM #211
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Originally Posted by flarkey25 View Post
You're forgetting about how many of these guns have hidden code in them too kids... Refs pull and check the guns all the time, but if you need to put in a code via trigger pulls or have a magnet or something like an rf chip in your glove to activate the mode only when your hand is in contact with the frame, refs pulling it to check it aren't going to do anything. They'll just think you have fast fingers. If you don't think this technology is actively employed in the NPPL, go get a reality check....

This whole arguement is bull**** anyway... Is there REALLY any difference between shooting 10-11 bps and 16-17? How much more often are you really going to hit someone because of those 2 extra balls? If you miss once in a second, you're probably going to miss 15 times in a second. PSP for example, I will run to corners against teams ramping their ***** off and not once get hit. I'll run standing up and shooting right back at them (Not hitting anything anyway...) and they still don't touch me. Other teams I can't even run (I run a quite respectable 40 time) and dive and make it there against them. Shooting faster really doesn't ****ing matter that much, haha. Before I just got annoyed with constant mode changing, I would always practice in semi-auto. It really didn't change anything, except I shot MORE paint... Don't ask me why or how, but I did.
All im gona say to you is "acuracy by volume". Please spare us the storys about how you run to the corners and never die.
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Old 11-19-2008, 01:51 PM #212
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At first I disagreed with raehl about trigger walking being a skill, however someone made the point earlier in the thread that if your a Divisional ranked paintball player pulling the trigger should be something that comes without thinking. when you reach that level of competition it makes sense that all players can meet/exceed the 13.3 limit, and should be able to run and gun while keeping accuracy. so I understand that that in order to help regulate and enforce fair play/easier to catch cheaters, the 13.3 limit makes sense.

however imo, ramping hurts beginner/newer players. the advantage givin to the beginner player who has faster fingers is much more evident than in divisional ball.


when the level of competition reaches a point were all players are shooting above 13 bps consistantly then it makes sense to have the 13.3 rule, allowing players to focus on the game instead of rof (which that level of player would be doing anyway). and making it easier to catch cheaters.

when the rof speeds between players can clearly give one player an advantage over another (beginner/novice levels), then let them have that advantage they have worked for.

I also understand that nobody is shooting true semi anymore. however its like saying that the person that bought the marker with less kick is cheating because he is getting more accuracy.
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Old 11-19-2008, 01:56 PM #213
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Originally Posted by xboxdave13 View Post
At first I disagreed with raehl about trigger walking being a skill, however someone made the point earlier in the thread that if your a Divisional ranked paintball player pulling the trigger should be something that comes without thinking. when you reach that level of competition it makes sense that all players can meet/exceed the 13.3 limit, and should be able to run and gun while keeping accuracy. so I understand that that in order to help regulate and enforce fair play/easier to catch cheaters, the 13.3 limit makes sense.

however imo, ramping hurts beginner/newer players. the advantage givin to the beginner player who has faster fingers is much more evident than in divisional ball.


when the level of competition reaches a point were all players are shooting above 13 bps consistantly then it makes sense to have the 13.3 rule, allowing players to focus on the game instead of rof (which that level of player would be doing anyway). and making it easier to catch cheaters.

when the rof speeds between players can clearly give one player an advantage over another (beginner/novice levels), then let them have that advantage they have worked for.

I also understand that nobody is shooting true semi anymore. however its like saying that the person that bought the marker with less kick is cheating because he is getting more accuracy.
I agree that really true semi is hard to come by, but its still alot harder to shoot with a little bounch then it is to pull the trigger 3 time and just hold it in.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:18 PM #214
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Originally Posted by xboxdave13 View Post
At first I disagreed with raehl about trigger walking being a skill, however someone made the point earlier in the thread that if your a Divisional ranked paintball player pulling the trigger should be something that comes without thinking. when you reach that level of competition it makes sense that all players can meet/exceed the 13.3 limit, and should be able to run and gun while keeping accuracy. so I understand that that in order to help regulate and enforce fair play/easier to catch cheaters, the 13.3 limit makes sense.
This may be true, but there is still a degree of skill involved.

If one player can run full speed and shoot 15 bps, and another player can run full speed but only shoot 10bps, there's still a difference, and I'd be willing to bet there's at least this degree of variability even in the pro division. It's a small difference, but it's there, nonetheless.

Which lane would you rather run through?

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Old 11-19-2008, 02:23 PM #215
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This may be true, but there is still a degree of skill involved.

If one player can run full speed and shoot 15 bps, and another player can run full speed but only shoot 10bps, there's still a difference, and I'd be willing to bet there's at least this degree of variability even in the pro division. It's a small difference, but it's there, nonetheless.

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Old 11-19-2008, 02:28 PM #216
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Typically most xball teams run 2 full squads. You are representing a much smaller cross section of xball teams. Two evenly matched 7man games run 14 full minutes of game time. Where as playing xball lite you typically play every other point for 15 minutes. Maybe its just me but gunfighting seems to wear me out more than running and diving to the next prop.

As for the second part of the question i have been playing national level events going on 7 years now. not once have i ever paid for a single ball. Thats not bragging or anything, since i have spent the majority of the time playing for d2 and d3 ranked teams.

Most teams that play events get paint from local shops that usually get some sort of deal for selling paint. Usually its something like: receive 5 free cases of paint for each 100 cases you sell. This is how most teams get paint for events.
You are a very small majority... We had a similar deal as did most teams, and still had to cover a very large portion of our paint bill.

And again, MOST teams take 2 full squads, and most of the time only a select few end up playing most of the points. We started only taking 7-8 because people would get pissed about paying the same and hardly playing. Look at most Xball teams and you'll quickly find that they may come with large groups, but they have a starting line that plays most the points.

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I "get" your point. When the rules say semi it really not true semi because of the bounce factor. I understand that. I get it.

I guess I'm from the old school in that if I'm shooting a gun I wanna know I'm shooting it. Ramping to me is more like flashlight tag. Once it starts ramping, just point it at your target the gun is doing the work for you. Do you get MY point? - Obviously I exaggerated for you to see my point.
Using Raehl's example... If it were trying just "point at target and hit it" because of how fast you were shooting without having to pull the trigger that fast, wouldn't people get shot going to the corner everytime they tried? Wouldn't pro teams just hire really small and fast guys and then tell them where to just point their gun at things? According to you, as long as you're pointing a ramping gun in the right direction it'll hit people. There are a multitude of other skills that go into hitting another player other than ROF. I think it probably has the least amount of influence on it of any of them.

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All im gona say to you is "acuracy by volume". Please spare us the storys about how you run to the corners and never die.
I didn't say I never "die"... I said some teams can't hit the broad side of a barn, even with ramping. Other teams however, will hit anyone, anytime they try to go to a certain bunker. I think everyone in this entire thread is vastly over-exagerating the effect shooting quicker has on the game. If you can't hit it with 12 bps, you're probably not going to with 17. There's still a chance it helps slightly, but I doubt anyone would notice new teams laning people off the break more often if they upped the ROF. The teams who know how to lane will shoot people, the teams that don't will not... ROF has a very, very minimal affect on this that everyone blows up to ridiculous proportions.

Everyone flipped **** when the PSP announced they were dropping the ramping from 15 to 13. They *****ed for weeks, but then....... silence. IT DIDN'T CHANCE ANYTHING! Once you get over a certain ROF, you're just missing your target more times per second...

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Originally Posted by PBNBallA View Post
I agree that really true semi is hard to come by, but its still alot harder to shoot with a little bounch then it is to pull the trigger 3 time and just hold it in.
PSP isn't full auto buddy.. You have to maintain 5bps.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:35 PM #217
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Originally Posted by flarkey25 View Post
You are a very small majority... We had a similar deal as did most teams, and still had to cover a very large portion of our paint bill.

And again, MOST teams take 2 full squads, and most of the time only a select few end up playing most of the points. We started only taking 7-8 because people would get pissed about paying the same and hardly playing. Look at most Xball teams and you'll quickly find that they may come with large groups, but they have a starting line that plays most the points.



Using Raehl's example... If it were trying just "point at target and hit it" because of how fast you were shooting without having to pull the trigger that fast, wouldn't people get shot going to the corner everytime they tried? Wouldn't pro teams just hire really small and fast guys and then tell them where to just point their gun at things? According to you, as long as you're pointing a ramping gun in the right direction it'll hit people. There are a multitude of other skills that go into hitting another player other than ROF. I think it probably has the least amount of influence on it of any of them.



I didn't say I never "die"... I said some teams can't hit the broad side of a barn, even with ramping. Other teams however, will hit anyone, anytime they try to go to a certain bunker. I think everyone in this entire thread is vastly over-exagerating the effect shooting quicker has on the game. If you can't hit it with 12 bps, you're probably not going to with 17. There's still a chance it helps slightly, but I doubt anyone would notice new teams laning people off the break more often if they upped the ROF. The teams who know how to lane will shoot people, the teams that don't will not... ROF has a very, very minimal affect on this that everyone blows up to ridiculous proportions.

Everyone flipped **** when the PSP announced they were dropping the ramping from 15 to 13. They *****ed for weeks, but then....... silence. IT DIDN'T CHANCE ANYTHING! Once you get over a certain ROF, you're just missing your target more times per second...



PSP isn't full auto buddy.. You have to maintain 5bps.

Agian i belive your underestimating the use of accuracy by volume.

And even so, its still ezier to maintaine 5bps makeing the gun shoot 13 then it is to shoot 13 with a gun with little to no bounce.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:41 PM #218
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I was out in San Diego this past weekend and was talking to a Pro player about rate of fire, giving my usual speil about how I hate 13.3 bps because it's still too fast, suggesting as I usually do that 8 or 10 would be better. His immediate response was "Then you'd have to lead your target."

I think people forget that the high rate of fire has actually made some other important skills less valuable. It used to be that you had to put some effort into putting your paintballs where your opponent was going to be WHEN they were going to be there. Now people just pick a lane and wait for their opponent to run through it.

I'd love to see rate of fire cut back drastically and the fields be more open and force people to actually aim to shoot opponents on the run.


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Old 11-19-2008, 02:43 PM #219
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Originally Posted by PBNBallA View Post
Agian i belive your underestimating the use of accuracy by volume.
Higher rates of fire help you counter paintballs bouncing and lack of accuracy at long distances.

But if the opponent is here -->

And you are shooting....................................here -->

No amount of rate of fire is going to help you.


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Old 11-19-2008, 02:46 PM #220
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.
Grab any gun out of a Pro player's hands. You'll need to ask them to turn on the cheater mode for you though.

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most of the time i will agree with what you have to say because it's pretty intelligent and makes sense, but this statement was just dumb.
that is quite the generalization of all pro players and also quite stereotypical.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:47 PM #221
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Everyone flipped **** when the PSP announced they were dropping the ramping from 15 to 13. They *****ed for weeks, but then....... silence. IT DIDN'T CHANCE ANYTHING! Once you get over a certain ROF, you're just missing your target more times per second...
Are you sure they weren't flipping because they had to get their boards reprogrammed for something as trivial as a 1.7 bps drop in ROF? By the way, can anyone tell me why the hell the PSP even bothered making this change?
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:52 PM #222
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
Higher rates of fire help you counter paintballs bouncing and lack of accuracy at long distances.

But if the opponent is here -->

And you are shooting....................................here -->

No amount of rate of fire is going to help you.


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true, but if im shooting 10 balls in your general direction and your only shooting 2, iv got a far greater chance of hitting you, simple mathmatics


Or in a more useful situation, I snap out in one second and get 4 balls off, while you snap out in one second and only shoot 2. Agian accuracy by volume.
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Old 11-19-2008, 03:01 PM #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBNBallA View Post
true, but if im shooting 10 balls in your general direction and your only shooting 2, iv got a far greater chance of hitting you, simple mathmatics


Or in a more useful situation, I snap out in one second and get 4 balls off, while you snap out in one second and only shoot 2. Agian accuracy by volume.
if you snap out in x-ball your only gonna get about 3 shots off. and same with nppl. the first three shots are semi and by the time you come back into your bunker your gun usually isnt ramping. and if you snap for one second like you said in x-ball you would get a maximum of 13.3 shots off and in nppl you have a chance to get more considering your gun isnt capped so if you shoot faster than 13bps which most people can in nppl then you have the "accuracy by volume" advantage over the x-ball player with the ramping.
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Old 11-19-2008, 03:03 PM #224
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if you snap out in x-ball your only gonna get about 3 shots off. and same with nppl. the first three shots are semi and by the time you come back into your bunker your gun usually isnt ramping. and if you snap for one second like you said in x-ball you would get a maximum of 13.3 shots off and in nppl you have a chance to get more considering your gun isnt capped so if you shoot faster than 13bps which most people can in nppl then you have the "accuracy by volume" advantage over the x-ball player with the ramping.
CORRECT!! But iv gained that advantage because i can shoot faster than you!!!!
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Old 11-19-2008, 03:05 PM #225
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most of the time i will agree with what you have to say because it's pretty intelligent and makes sense, but this statement was just dumb.
that is quite the generalization of all pro players and also quite stereotypical.
Well, I wasn't being ENTIRELY serious (not all pro players all the time), but it's not exactly a well-kept secret that breakout modes are pretty prevalent.

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Old 11-19-2008, 03:06 PM #226
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CORRECT!! But iv gained that advantage because i can shoot faster than you!!!!
Because your board adds more shots than his does.

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Old 11-19-2008, 03:10 PM #227
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Because your board adds more shots than his does.

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lol i new that was gonna be the next post. False

Plz stop hideing behind the idea that everyones cheating. its kind of a moot point.

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Old 11-19-2008, 04:11 PM #228
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lol i new that was gonna be the next post. False

Plz stop hideing behind the idea that everyones cheating. its kind of a moot point.
its a valid point if you understand the inherant inperfections of programming code.
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Old 11-19-2008, 04:46 PM #229
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he's baseing all of his opinions on the idea that "everyones" cheating. Its pretty retarded. Because im pretty sure its safe to say everyones not.
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Old 11-19-2008, 04:52 PM #230
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he's baseing all of his opinions on the idea that "everyones" cheating. Its pretty retarded. Because im pretty sure its safe to say everyones not.
But technically everyone is cheating in a sense since almost everyones gun bounces/adds shots and thats the main point of his argument.
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Old 11-19-2008, 05:29 PM #231
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he's baseing all of his opinions on the idea that "everyones" cheating. Its pretty retarded. Because im pretty sure its safe to say everyones not.
Of course EVERYONE isn't cheating. But I would conservatively bet that 90% of guns in use at a NPPL event are not semi-auto. Even the people arguing that shooting fast is a skill concede that you only draw a penalty if the ref thinks your gun has "too much" bounce.


So I base my opinion on the fact that nobody's electronic gun really shoots semi-auto. If it did, you would think it was broken and wouldn't buy it.

It's not that I think everyone cheats. It's that I think almost no one has any clue anymore what semi-auto actually is.

Which I base on my computer engineering education, training and experience coupled with 14 years in the sport, and extensive conversations with the guys who design and program the guns and the professional players who use them.


Mr. PBNBallA, I played with semi-auto guns. I know semi-auto guns; I like semi-auto. Mr. PBNBallA, your gun is no semi-auto gun.

My apologies to Sen. Bentsen.


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