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Old 10-30-2008, 04:23 PM #1
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Time for a new thread to stir the mental juices.

Let's say, purely as a hypothetical, that I decide I want to invest some sum of money into an NEPL team. For the sake of argument, let's call it $10,000. Enough to cover entry fees, paint, hotel and some amount of practice costs.

This team, we'll call it SCA (Stein's Cash Allergy) for now, is to compete in the NEPL, perhaps the occasional GPL and maybe even a local(ish) PSP or NPPL should any apply.

SCA will be mentored by the Hurricanes. I'll assign a Hurricane to coach the team and to walk fields and game plan with the team. Maybe I'll even fill some spots with ex-Hurricanes who are NEPL eligible (and good teachers). Tim and Scott Maher types. Or TBO. Or Jonzo. Whoever. The idea isn't to create a team of ringers, but to create a team of the top local talent put in a position to be groomed for future greatness (and may also include a lifetime, binding contract). SCA would be an opportunity for the best young talent to learn at the hands of some of the region's best teachers and to work hand-in-hand with the 'Canes.

But in order to do this, I will have to take players off of existing local teams and some of those teams will not survive my intrusion. If I take one or two Ducks, an Armageddeonan, a First Waver. Would those teams continue, weakened, having watched their friends and former team mates depart for greener pastures?

The idea is not to target top local teams and break them up so they can't compete with my new team (hmm... now that I read it, that is a damn good idea, though. I wonder what nefarious mind may have thought these evil thoughts before?), but if I want the best, it will become an inevitability.

So, that is the proposition and here is the conversation I would like to frame: In light of all the talk about helping the region and helping to grow the sport in NE, would the creation of SCA be viewed as a good thing (helping the best get better) or a bad thing (breaking up a multitude of teams to create one)? Is it good that I "own" such an undertaking (as the current king **** of the kaka tribe, at least as regards competition teams) or a bad thing (because we need an infusion of new blood, new ideas, new money)?

Edit: This comes across as megalomaniacal even for me. This isn't about me, this is a question of the consolidation of resources and opportunities. I happen to be where I am, not because I am smarter or better, but because I was willing to spend more time and money. But at the current moment, the Hurricanes are the top team in the region and I am the owner of that team, so that's why I phrased it that way. We can certainly debate if the region would have been better off with another guardian; Richie Loicano or Anthony Vitale or Dave Hervey (all of whom held court for their own period of time and all of whom had the sense to vacate their position before it got cost-prohibitive (which can become another thread in and of itself, the inevitable, eventual migration of the reigning top dog due to the inherent costs of competing)).

I'm not saying this is happening. I'm not saying its not. I'm just wondering if people would look at that as a good or bad thing. What is the best way to grow the region? Trickle down economics (hey, it worked for me) or "it takes a village to raise a child" (and here I really can't say anything bad, because I prefer Sir Hillary to Obama).

Final Caveat: Ducks, I know you read these (Mike Jeffreys, Blake, Muffins, at least) and this particular thread directly impacts you, so its time to speak up a little or I'll up the ante.
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Old 10-30-2008, 05:42 PM #2
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I would not see it as a bad thing, but I am not in the area that would be impacted.

"Infusing new blood" It takes the people getting out there and taking advantage of situations as they come. If you were to take the top dogs from local teams, this would not introduce new blood, it would just shift some people from one place to another. Now if you were to take the top dogs from other places rather than the New England area, or to introduce some new players altogether, that would be introducing new blood.

"Infusing new ideas and money" The sport could always use some new ideas and money. I do not see a downside to this, except for the lightening of your wallet for the time being.

To be honest, and this is coming from a completely different region of the country (CFOA to be specific), When we see top teams, our goal is to bring them down a notch. If you were to take the top players from all of the local teams and migrate them to one organization this should not hurt the team per say, because the team should be able to recover from this. If the team does not recover and falls on its face, and ultimately breaks apart, then maybe you now have the best leadership in your camp, and that is not a bad thing.

As far as having a team of ringers, there is nothing wrong with this. It will give other teams a level to reach, and they will ultimately have to reach this level in order to be competitive. If they don't reach it then they wont win.

I would say do it, the sport could always use new organizations, and I hope the best comes out of it for you, and if you decide not to step on toes up in New England you could always form a CFOA team.. hint, hint, wink, wink......
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:04 PM #3
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:06 PM #4
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If you are going to create said team, create it with the eligible Hurricanes and some players who are not at that top level of play. Bring up some Novice players who are talented and committed to the sport. Mentor them and build a solid team year after year like this. The players improve, go on there way and form up with other top level players. The talent pool will grow each year and top level teams will begin popping up all over the place.

Why create a team of the top talent to compete in a regional series on the basis to help build the North East teams?

Creating a "super" team is not necessarily a bad thing, but for the reasons you are giving it would not be prudent. To compete in the NPPL/PSP, I would agree with this, perhaps create a Ne Hurricanes D1 (and actually call it that).
Creating said "super" team to play against teams that serve as no legitimate competition would just bring down the area I believe.

Agree, disagree or comment.
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:48 PM #5
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the point is to take the top players in this area and bring the talent up to get them to the next step to someday become good enough to play for the canes. That is why he would be bringing the EX canes as the mentors. For jeff to just throw out that kind of money to novice players would be flat out stupid. For putting out that kind of money there needs to be some sort of return. Putting together a team with the top players in the area will atleast give more exposure since they should be winning events and at the same with the help from the ex canes and the current canes players the new team will be getting better and in the next few years some of the players will be ready to take that next step and fill in roles that the canes might have where with out the help from the players and jeff they wouldnt be able to get to that point in the first place.

jeff id be down I say bring back dellas too

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Old 10-30-2008, 07:32 PM #6
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"hypothetically" jeff
this sounds like a *****in idea
and "hypothetically" would be an amazing opportunity for some of NE's local talent wanting to step it up
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:31 PM #7
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I think Armageddon broke up around I don't think any intrusion would have been necessary

If you are trying to build a national team it will help with people's perception of NE teams but it wouldn't help any teams locally.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:33 PM #8
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So basically you would copy me 6 times and bring me out of retirement, to create a wisecracking face muggin entity know as "The Gwilym", huh sounds nice. WAKA WAKA WAKA

but seriously sounds like a good idea. The ducks need a pro level coach. It helps every team grow.

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Old 10-30-2008, 09:04 PM #9
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Originally Posted by Jeffriezz View Post
The question of blah blah blah blah.
Michael, glad you elected to join us, wish you decided to stay.

I won't bother to deconstruct your post. You already took it down. Besides, it seems to me that you are already on the right path, you just need a gentle nudge. To that end, think of me as a force for universal enlightenment or, alternatively, as the stick carried in the right hand of Paintball Darwinism. I will not try to convince you of anything, to sell you on anything, merely to help you see the preordained.

For now, I'll leave you with but a single postulate and your thoughts and I eagerly await what you come back with.

If you already agree that those who dare to climb the mountain rarely reach the summit with the same people around them, then doesn't it all become a mundane calculation of the law of diminishing returns, ROI and, of course, of the half-life of players and teams?

I am picking on you. I apologize. But I know who you are. I saw you sneak into the final game at the Maynard Clinic (sandals and a backpack, no less). I see you jump in on games with NEX after most of your team mates have gone home. I know you think about this stuff, or at least you will now that I've called you out on it.
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:19 PM #10
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It will impact local teams but you almost have to do it, because it creates openings for newer players on those teams and the cycle continues as long as said teams choose not to cry like *****es and continue.

everybody graduates and leaves the teams unless they have reached their goals and choose not to continue, but from the way I see it Jeff if you where to start another team by all means pull all the favored players that can commit and give them the shot---> this is the pool and this is what we have and every captain needs to deal with it if there is a problem,,, honestly theres no way it will hurt paintballs future in NE if anything it will enhance it because to all the kids coming up they'll see theres more possibilities after amateur and put even more hard work into it..
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:38 PM #11
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I think it is a good idea because many of those teams could stay together by just picking kids up from other teams, and adapting to change... And then the other teams would pick up more kids and so on and so forth.

If you do this you should definitely have an open try-out after selecting the players I am sure you have been watching.. Assuming there would be room for that. :-)
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:42 PM #12
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Originally Posted by brawnpb View Post
If you are going to create said team, create it with the eligible Hurricanes and some players who are not at that top level of play. Bring up some Novice players who are talented and committed to the sport. Mentor them and build a solid team year after year like this. The players improve, go on there way and form up with other top level players. The talent pool will grow each year and top level teams will begin popping up all over the place.

Why create a team of the top talent to compete in a regional series on the basis to help build the North East teams?

Creating a "super" team is not necessarily a bad thing, but for the reasons you are giving it would not be prudent. To compete in the NPPL/PSP, I would agree with this, perhaps create a Ne Hurricanes D1 (and actually call it that).
Creating said "super" team to play against teams that serve as no legitimate competition would just bring down the area I believe.

Agree, disagree or comment.
Yeah, it seems like it may hurt the other top-level teams in the area if you were to pick and choose their talent. Why not cherry pick lower-level players, maybe just a single division lower, and throw in one or two high-division players and some 'Canes, and use your team to both win, and promote the progression of players. Seems like a good idea, all-in-all.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:03 PM #13
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Lets think logically here. Jeff stein puts x amount of dollars into the hurricanes yearly. He does not put money directly into the hands of NEX, but he helps them with sponsorship (I presume). Why then would he take any left over money and put it into a team of novice/younger players, that could possibly fail.

Seeing the potential that kids like the ducks, armageddon, so on have, investing money into making a team with players that have proved much to New England is probably a bit of a safer route.

With that being said, taking these teams apart might not work. I played with the ducks all last season and its a tight knit group. We pretty much hung out all weekend (at the beach), every weekend, and played paintball. Our success was based on not only the teaching of many veteran players (pierce former riptide D1), but of our friendship and connection that we got on the field. Now rip these kids apart, you take apart two seasons that the team grew into what it is now. Maybe thats just me and I am being biased bc I want to see the ducks stick it out and tear it up.

There is a lot of potential with doing this Jeff. You take the top dogs, make a damn good team, and you will see good results. But in the end, do you lose an even better team if the ducks/armageddon/etc fall apart? Its a risk, but a good risk I think. Damn I wish I didn't stop playing after last season. I miss it too much.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:15 PM #14
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It seems to me (and I've had a long day, so I may change my mind re-reading this tomorrow) you are hurting the team base in the area but improving the talent base (in a are hurting the team base in the area but improving the talent base (in a very small way). By breaking up the top level teams in the area (which you would be doing - you lose 2-3 guys off a team, your killers, its tough to keep going at an Int or AM level) you are taking out the good competition that teams need to improve as a unit - that said, you are making those players who you have selected better, grooming them.

I don't see how it would help the region, however, because you are only improving the talent of 7-8 guys. Yes, they are going to get a lot better most likely with those resources and high quality coaching, but where does that leave everyone else? You've taken apart the teams that potentially had a shot as a unit (debateably). That means that you've got a base of high level players, maybe not those killers you took, but high level players, that are no longer improving.

Motivation is a powerful factor that a lot of discussions here do not take into consideration. What does it do to the motivation of that base of players I spoke about above when their teams are cherry picked? We saw an example in Ultimate, who after winning D1 pretty handily was cherry picked by bigger teams. Sure, those players may have gotten better playing with great teams, but Ultimate got their **** pushed in in NXL from then on. The talent base in the Southeast may have improved, at least some of the players from there, but Ultimate certainly didn't improve, and I can't say the region as a whole improved. With those players playing on greener pastures, who were the ones left behind in the region to look to? I know for a fact that getting destroyed at every event is not motivating, because I've been there. You leave an event (no matter what level) feeling like dog**** when you get beaten down. Enough of that and the motivation to improve will not be there. It takes some players longer to get there, but by cherry picking players off top level teams it would, in my opinion, hurt the region because you are potentially losing that second tier of players that could still get to a high level of play.


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Old 10-30-2008, 11:34 PM #15
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Just keep in mind one thing:
The Ducks dont practice anymore, it cuts into their World.Of.Warcraft time...

Seriously Though.

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Old 10-30-2008, 11:35 PM #16
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i find this idea to be a very thoughtful one. now we know a lot of NE teams throw together teams for the NPPL's and PSP correct? this gives kids that really want to work for it a shot at the "big leagues" so to speak. if you take the young talent around the new england area and build them into killers like the canes today, that would be a great step towards paintball in NE. it would be a snowball effect to say the least.
(Bear with me this might be confusing) If you take 7-10 players from around new england weather it be from teams or not, also a mixture of both, these players can only get better and better correct? We all know that you only get better playing better teams and players. so these players will be at the top of their level and will be a new upcoming NE team. they will then play around with their other friends and such making their friends a little better. These 7-10 players forming this new team will be scouted and recruited by other D1-Pro teams (hopefully). This will leave spots open on this new "SCA" team, letting other players come up and have their shot.

i know what it feels like to get a chance, granted its not as big as this but it was a damn good chance. i admit i was not even close to a novice player coming into this 2008 season, but with the help of the woburn monsters and all the experienced players that pushed my **** in every practice i became a better paintball player.
this is what would happen to anyone if they played for this "SCA" team, which is what Jeff is saying.
to make this post short i totally agree with this idea.

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Old 10-30-2008, 11:44 PM #17
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alrighty jeff here is my weigh in.

as a player who has seen this stuff happen first hand. i think it is an excellent idea. it gives people and teams in the area something to strive for that is more obtainable. be it the opportunity to play on a team such as your hypothetical one, or make theirs just as good if not better. there will always be new talent coming up with kids getting to that age every year where they can start being serious. making stronger teams in the area promotes other teams to get just as strong. if you have sporatic talent on all different teams that cant get it together so to say and they have an opportunity to all come together and make one "super team" if you will, it will make the people not chosen work that much harder to be that good. ive seen people ive played with when i first started playing become pro players and either continue to play now or have since retired, and there is that talent coming out again looking to fill these pros shoes at the regional/national level for their northeast. i dont want to say that we have an endless possible talent pool, but the pool is not shallow by any means currently and can certainly rebound without issue if a few select are taken out to be brought to greener pastures.

if you plan on going through with something like this, you need to also look outside of just current nepl teams. you should look into teams from all over the northeast and find out who their players are, how their team currently stands, and if there is anything you think youd like from them. of course this is all if you decide to go through with this. i wouldnt worry about killing teams off, teams seem to constantly rebuild around this area so it would be no different. id like to see this happen personally.. just means theres more teams to practice against. but thats not to say i would be against coming up and checking this out for myself either

btw... im the one you emailed earlier this week about the thing on pbreserve hah.

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Old 10-31-2008, 12:13 AM #18
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Like it or not, the reality of paintball is that the best teams usually get picked apart at some point.

If you ever make it to the point where you are wearing a pro jersey theres about a 90% chance that you were cherry-picked from a top divisional team.

Its hard to bring a team through the ranks together and end up being a pro team. Many have tried but, only a handful have been successful in the past 10 years.

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Old 10-31-2008, 12:33 AM #19
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Originally Posted by AdReNaLiN jUnKeE View Post
it will make the people not chosen work that much harder to be that good.
I agree. Doing this will create a void. That void will be filled by players from the lower ranks and draw them up.

It will likely light a fire under many players' ***** once a tangible "bridge to pro" exists. That's not necessarily what this team will be, but many will think of it that way.

Do it.
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:55 AM #20
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Jeff - if you're interested in scouting....I'll be playing with Armageddon this Sunday at the NEPL - I know I'm on the depth chart somewhere.

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Old 10-31-2008, 08:28 AM #21
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I think it's a great idea! It sounds like you're essentialliy starting a farm program, that's awesome.

As far as weakening the top NEPL teams, I think one would have to be extremely naive to believe that the best players are not going to move on to bigger and better things in most cases anyway. This is not only great for the long term success of our region on the national level, but it's also great for individual players because it allows them an opportunity. And I think it would also allow more players to move up the ladder because when you take one of their players, the're going to have to recruit some players into their ranks allowing more players an opportunity to compete at a higher level.

For the Hurricanes, I think this is an excellent formula to build long term success. This will create a solid pipeline of players from the area who can step in know the game plan and keep the team competitive in the event of a retirement or, god forbid, and injury.

The only problem I see is that this farm team would not get to see the level of competition in the NEPL it may need to get better, like you said it would essentially be a team of ringers. I understand that they could practice against the Canes, but practice is still just practice. They need to be tested in tournament play when the pressure is on. You can't simulate that kind of pressure in practice. Therefore I think that this team would have to step outside the NEPL as often as they can in order to get better. Or start up two farm teams that can push each other in NEPL play to be come better, this way one team of all stars does not absolutely dominate.

It's a great idea Jeff. I hope you're able to get it off the ground and turn it into a positive thing to grow paintball in our region. Good luck...
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