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Old 02-04-2013, 01:26 PM #1
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Beginner 3 man or stomping ground??

TC GR has a three man beginner series that is running. Begginer series is a reach! Curious as to the definaition of beginner is? Does it mean anyone that has not played over d1 or semipro? It cant be a whole lot of fun getting your butt handed to you by those teams. If this is how you want younger players to get into some form of tournament play then this isn't the best way. I know a LOT of you will say youre a baby and gtfo of here and blah blah... I'm just saying the younger players didn't look like they were having much fun getting steamrolled! I have been to the
1st, 2nd, and now third and I can honestly say I doubt I will have my son playing in the 4th. To spend a couple hundred bucks to have these 18, 19 and even 25 yr olds shooting the crap out of them just seems not much like a beginner series.
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:07 PM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfrontman View Post
TC GR has a three man beginner series that is running. Begginer series is a reach! Curious as to the definaition of beginner is? Does it mean anyone that has not played over d1 or semipro? It cant be a whole lot of fun getting your butt handed to you by those teams. If this is how you want younger players to get into some form of tournament play then this isn't the best way. I know a LOT of you will say youre a baby and gtfo of here and blah blah... I'm just saying the younger players didn't look like they were having much fun getting steamrolled! I have been to the
1st, 2nd, and now third and I can honestly say I doubt I will have my son playing in the 4th. To spend a couple hundred bucks to have these 18, 19 and even 25 yr olds shooting the crap out of them just seems not much like a beginner series.
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:34 PM #3
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To qualify as a beginner you have to be at or under D4 ranking.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:06 PM #4
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well, im very sorry to hear that you feel you were misinformed.

i purposefully call my winter series 'winter beginner' (same name for 4 years now) to entice the newer players to come in, and when i do get new players and teams, i create a separate bracket for them to compete in.

unfortunately i cannot control who actually signs up.

i bracket the teams based on skill caliber. for this event we had 10 teams sign up. 5 'better on paper' teams went into the more experienced bracket and the 5 'lower skill caliber' teams went into the less experience bracket.

in a perfect world all teams would be the same skill caliber but unfortunately that isnt the case.

i promise you no one over the D4 skill level has competed in any of the Winter Beginner tourneys this year.

as far as the ages of the players goes, in paintball age does not dictate skill level. i can show you 16 year old rookies, 16 year old pros, 40 year old rookies and 40 year old pros.

we did have some teams that are simply further along, or just 'better' than other teams at this event. i think you will find that in any event you attend.

i always try to encourage the younger teams to learn from the established teams, ask questions as everyone around my field likes to help the newer players, and maybe take my clinics to improve their personal skill levels. i regret that you think your sons team was just steam rolled w/o a chance to move onto finals.

if you look at the 'project mayhem' teams, i have moved them around based on their previous placings. i am willing to do this with all the teams, but once they are in the lower bracket, theres not any other adjustments i can make, aside from creating other teams of the same skill level, which i have also done in the past.

again, i am sorry you felt misled about the skill caliber. if there is a way to make it up to you and your son, please feel free to contact me:

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Old 02-04-2013, 09:29 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfrontman View Post
TC GR has a three man beginner series that is running. Begginer series is a reach! Curious as to the definaition of beginner is? Does it mean anyone that has not played over d1 or semipro? It cant be a whole lot of fun getting your butt handed to you by those teams. If this is how you want younger players to get into some form of tournament play then this isn't the best way. I know a LOT of you will say youre a baby and gtfo of here and blah blah... I'm just saying the younger players didn't look like they were having much fun getting steamrolled! I have been to the
1st, 2nd, and now third and I can honestly say I doubt I will have my son playing in the 4th. To spend a couple hundred bucks to have these 18, 19 and even 25 yr olds shooting the crap out of them just seems not much like a beginner series.
I understand the frustration but realize that 'sandbagging' happens in any sport, from bowling to paintball. It's just that in paintball it hurts a bit more.

That being said all tournament organizers for paintball can go by is ranking. That's a national ranking. So players who have played in 'big series' have a ranking. However that doesn't mean that there are very good players without such a ranking playing locally for many years. Unfortunately it's impossible for any tournament organizer to know and separate these players. These posts have been coming since the 90's and will continue to come. I understand, but there isn't much you can do other than either let the newest teams learn the 'hard way' in a tournament, or if they're not yet ready, just keep getting ready in clinics and open play.

As others have said, age isn't much of a factor in paintball. I've seen 'young gun' tournaments with age limits of 16 and 17 and you'll still see a wide range of skill levels. I know 16 year olds who can beat 40 year olds consistency, and vise versa.

Paintball is a great sport in that you can truly progress in so many different parts of the game that there are HUGE differences in skill to move up. That's great for long term fun of the sport. It's NOT so fun in trying to determine how to split up teams in tournaments at any level below national levels... AND even at the national levels people will argue about rankings. There is no perfect situation.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:12 AM #6
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I haven't played a beginner 3 man tournament at TC this year yet, but I did play last year. I still believe from personal experience this is one of the best places to start. Yes the competition may be a little tougher than a true beginner may think, but I can't think of a current tournament series nearby that would be any better for a beginning team.

When I first really started playing paintball, TC's Beginner 3 Man was where I started. My first two tournaments with a few guys I met at League Nights (1 beginner and 1 novice) went surprisingly well. Probably better than they should have as we took 3rd and then 2nd. We had some confidence and decided to attend a 3man GLS event soon after. Lets just say we won literally 1 game that whole day. New teams have a lot better chance at catching a break at TC tournaments than they would else where. Whether that translates into any wins just depends on the situation.

My advice is if you don't feel ready even for a beginner 3 man, then maybe try playing a few random draw league nights. That is where I first started and I still love playing them because of the mix of new and experienced players. Once you can consistently play well at league nights, then maybe try an actual tournament. Just a suggestion.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:25 AM #7
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There are lots of 'beginner' tournaments (TCP, Colors, CRU, and others in nearby states), and these were created because 'rookie' tournaments were already full of a higher skill level than those people playing their first season of tournament paintball.

So... we now have 'open class, rookie class, and beginner class' in local tournaments in Michigan and we still do have a wide range of skill in all three of these types of tournaments.

Even with three classes it still would be great to split it up further but there are only so many teams to go around so that's about as far as we can split it today. The more people playing the more splits tournament producers can do.

As others said, TCP, Colors, and CRU all have beginners tournaments. You can try them all but you'll see people from their first tournament to those who have some reasonable skill. However in all these locations rookie tournaments will draw a much higher skilled crowd.

That first step will be hard for so many reasons. Nerves, inability to work as a team, and communication, things that don't matter as much in open play so it's a lot to learn before you can compete. If you can handle losing most of your games, you'll still learn a lot in your first few tournaments. Everyone here on this forum started that way.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:46 AM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfrontman View Post
TC GR has a three man beginner series that is running. Begginer series is a reach! Curious as to the definaition of beginner is? Does it mean anyone that has not played over d1 or semipro? It cant be a whole lot of fun getting your butt handed to you by those teams. If this is how you want younger players to get into some form of tournament play then this isn't the best way. I know a LOT of you will say youre a baby and gtfo of here and blah blah... I'm just saying the younger players didn't look like they were having much fun getting steamrolled! I have been to the
1st, 2nd, and now third and I can honestly say I doubt I will have my son playing in the 4th. To spend a couple hundred bucks to have these 18, 19 and even 25 yr olds shooting the crap out of them just seems not much like a beginner series.
I understand your post, and your frustration, and let me tell you my story.

I am 35 years old and have been playing this wonderful sport for 11 years. I have played in 3man, 5man, and one 7man tournament locally. I have played xball at the d4 level, and took 4th place overall in the NPPL D4 5man series in 2011. After taking all of 2012 off with a shoulder injury I put together a new team to play this season and we decided to play the Winter Beginner series as a warm up. and let me tell you I too was surprised at the level of competition. I didnt expect to enter and win this series, but I expected to do well. After two events (16 games) my team has won 1... 1 game. Now that sucks, thats frustrating, that makes you want to stop. But let me tell you what did happen in those 15 loses... We learned. That, in my opinion, is the best part about the winter beginner series. You have the opportunity to learn from your mistakes. Does it hurt when you lose? Hell yes it does, but those welts and those bruises (both physical and ego bruises) are a constant reminder that this isnt an easy sport.

Now if your son really wants to get better encourage him to keep practicing. Encourage him to talk to the teams that beat them (most of them are more than willing to work with newer players to help them get better). Have him come out to open plays, league nights, clinics, and when hes ready fight nights. But the one thing you dont want him to do is give up. I know its an expensive way to learn, but really in paintball, its the only way to learn.

I hope this helps you to understand that we, as a community, know what you and your son are going through. We have all been there, and we are all willing to help you in any way we can.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:27 AM #9
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I understand your post, and your frustration, and let me tell you my story.

I am 35 years old and have been playing this wonderful sport for 11 years. I have played in 3man, 5man, and one 7man tournament locally. I have played xball at the d4 level, and took 4th place overall in the NPPL D4 5man series in 2011. After taking all of 2012 off with a shoulder injury I put together a new team to play this season and we decided to play the Winter Beginner series as a warm up. and let me tell you I too was surprised at the level of competition. I didnt expect to enter and win this series, but I expected to do well. After two events (16 games) my team has won 1... 1 game. Now that sucks, thats frustrating, that makes you want to stop. But let me tell you what did happen in those 15 loses... We learned. That, in my opinion, is the best part about the winter beginner series. You have the opportunity to learn from your mistakes. Does it hurt when you lose? Hell yes it does, but those welts and those bruises (both physical and ego bruises) are a constant reminder that this isnt an easy sport.

Now if your son really wants to get better encourage him to keep practicing. Encourage him to talk to the teams that beat them (most of them are more than willing to work with newer players to help them get better). Have him come out to open plays, league nights, clinics, and when hes ready fight nights. But the one thing you dont want him to do is give up. I know its an expensive way to learn, but really in paintball, its the only way to learn.

I hope this helps you to understand that we, as a community, know what you and your son are going through. We have all been there, and we are all willing to help you in any way we can.

Couldn't have said it better. And it is very hard to learn in this sport.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:51 PM #10
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We got it handed to us hard Sunday (not much super about the day. I mean the niners lost too). With that said I don't mind getting beaten by a better team. I'm 42 and my son is 20 and we play quite a bit now. We stopped for about 5 years and started again about 6-8 months ago. We try to have fun when we play and I admit I found myself getting frusterated as I can get Sunday. Rick tries to help players when we play on league night and whenever we are around. It is the luck of the draw so to speak sometimes.

With all my blathering I am saying it is easy to get pissed frusterated but after all is said and done we all love playing this sport. What other sport (OK, other than golf. Is golf a real sport when you can actually drink a beer while playing it?) can a 40+ yr old go run around and actually compete with and against his kid? It's a freeking dream to me. As much as I get it handed to me I still come back for more.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:47 PM #11
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Old 02-06-2013, 04:19 AM #12
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Considering my long, personal history with this series, I have strong feelings about it.

When I played my first TCP Beginner 3man in Summer 09, it was my first tournament paintball experience. We did not do well at that first event, but I stuck with it and eventually won the Beginner 3man series the following season.

Soon after, I moved on to the Iron Mitten Series in the Rookie class, then the IMS Open class, and then to the national level. I currently serve as a reff for Rick and TCP in both the Beginner 3mans and the IMS.

...all of that being said, I have never doubted TCP's ability to make everything as fair as possible. It is unfortunate that you had a bad experience while you participated in this series, but please understand that this is like any other sport and there are people who are always going to feel the playing field was unfair. Regarding this series, I promise it is far from the truth.

I can also assure you that there are no players who are over the skill level of D4 playing in this series. TCP actually makes a big effort in investigating the experience of teams during pre-registration to make sure there are no over experienced players allowed playing.

Age should almost be irrelevant in this context since there are so many young players who have shown great success in this sport. TCP Midland Black is a good example of a team that consists of very young players, who are all relatively new to tournaments, but have shown great progression in this series, and a recent podium finish at the last event.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:29 AM #13
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Considering my long, personal history with this series, I have strong feelings about it.

When I played my first TCP Beginner 3man in Summer 09, it was my first tournament paintball experience. We did not do well at that first event, but I stuck with it and eventually won the Beginner 3man series the following season.

Soon after, I moved on to the Iron Mitten Series in the Rookie class, then the IMS Open class, and then to the national level. I currently serve as a reff for Rick and TCP in both the Beginner 3mans and the IMS.

...all of that being said, I have never doubted TCP's ability to make everything as fair as possible. It is unfortunate that you had a bad experience while you participated in this series, but please understand that this is like any other sport and there are people who are always going to feel the playing field was unfair. Regarding this series, I promise it is far from the truth.

I can also assure you that there are no players who are over the skill level of D4 playing in this series. TCP actually makes a big effort in investigating the experience of teams during pre-registration to make sure there are no over experienced players allowed playing.

Age should almost be irrelevant in this context since there are so many young players who have shown great success in this sport. TCP Midland Black is a good example of a team that consists of very young players, who are all relatively new to tournaments, but have shown great progression in this series, and a recent podium finish at the last event.
This.

Also, I think what a lot of people dont understand, is that just because its a rookie event, doesnt mean the event is full of "rookies". I think most people try and jump into the tournament scene a little too early. Shoot I played atleast a season or so against players much better then me, before I even played a single beginner event. Take your lickings in open play and and playing on weekends, then enter the tournament scene once you are one of the better open play players. My first ever event we placed third. I think people under estimate what it actually takes to win any event. At any level.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:59 PM #14
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This.

Also, I think what a lot of people dont understand, is that just because its a rookie event, doesnt mean the event is full of "rookies". I think most people try and jump into the tournament scene a little too early. Shoot I played atleast a season or so against players much better then me, before I even played a single beginner event. Take your lickings in open play and and playing on weekends, then enter the tournament scene once you are one of the better open play players. My first ever event we placed third. I think people under estimate what it actually takes to win any event. At any level.
Completely agree. I want to say I played for at least 2 years prior to entering into my first event at Operation Ambush, some where in the k'zoo area. It was a 3 man event and WOW we got our butts kicked, here we thought we were ok so to speak, back then there was a team who was sponsored, they all had custom Impulses, maybe RAT Impulses, im not 100% sure as it was about 2001 or 02, but we thought they were just the ****. Walking out with stuff like tippman 98 (teammate) other teammate had a stock cocker and I had a Bob Long Millennium. But the first or second team we had to face was, low and behold, Starts and Stripes, Ricks team!!! FML that game lasted less then 30 seconds LOL That was also the first time I ever seen the dude play, besides buying porduct it from him.

Many years, events and to much money spent later....

Fast forward to Magnum Sportz days (07/08) when it was in soccer zone, well i actually got revenge and was able to get pay back and shoot rick a couple of fight nights instead, key word, a couple, lol.... Moral of my long story, not about revenge... I swear there is a point... It took a long time to get a skill level to play in events. Only though hard work will you ever be able to win. But make sure you have fun too!

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Old 02-07-2013, 01:20 AM #15
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ok I guess ppl are actually missing his point as you say d-4 and under and using the word rookie. He was stating that this is a beginner series and the players/teams are not beginners as beginners are just getting into the tourney scene. We all know that there is not enough beginners to actually run an event these days and we that have been around understand that and know that wording doesn't actually define who will show, but maybe calling it a rookie series would not have confused a few ppl. Also stated Colors has a beginner series is also not true and I have never used the term beginner for any event/series because I know that there would be players on teams that were not beginners, so I used the term rookie instead. I would also just say for the author to just keep at it and hopefully learn during the winter, because come spring when events move outside it won't get any easier. maybe go to fight night because it will give u the same competition along with some tougher and it will cost u less to learn.
I usually don't speak when ppl have complaints because it only gets ppl pissed, but this one just needed to be clarified because nobody was doing it correctly. also just for the record just because it's d-4 and under doesn't mean that seasoned players wouldn't be there then because so many really good players don't even play a national event to get a ranking, so this is another big flaw with the d-4 or below idea. anyway there is no way around it that's for sure ! just my view of what he was getting at !
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:05 AM #16
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Randy knows! Good explanation.

That's what I mean, there are a ton of solid players without a rank.
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:20 PM #17
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Great responses guys, gentle and encouraging. Although since Lee has yet to post in this topic, it looks like I'm going to have to be the bad guy.

The root of the problem isn't with the series. Rick does everything possible to cater to all skill levels from casual player to casual player looking to improve into a tournament player for local and national level. You see sir, the problem is with you and you alone. You entered your kid into a COMPETITION. Did it not occur to you that the rest of the participants were going to just lay down to your golden boy? Did you expect him to enter and make the number 1 spot regardless of the skills of his team or the opposing teams? Well sir, we are all sorry that it just wasn't his day in the spotlight, and as you have read, it has happened to every single person here. Competition is a *****, maybe you never learned this as a child, but at least you just gave him a lesson in it.


Moral of the story is. If your kid is the greatest kid ever (just like every parent in the world think) sign him up for soccer. Then he can get that participation trophy.
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:05 PM #18
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Ok everyone take a deep breath and step away from the keyboards. I would say that the OP has ome valid points but also needs to take a deep breath and look to see what he can do to change the situation.

Perhaps it might be a good idea to look into the league nights for his kid. They are an awesome way to get experience above open play level, there are awesome prizes and the guys who play the league nights are the best! They are always helping new players it is probably the best way to get into a "beginner" level of play. Not to say that leagues are a beginner only format but I feel they are the best gateway to really being able to compete at a higher level. just my $.02.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:34 PM #19
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Just go play paintball. It really is definition of a sport where "practice makes perfect".

You've now entered a tournament and have seen where your talent level is. go practice. then practice. and then practice again. over and over.

keep playing tournaments so you can gauge how you're coming along. the gap between the initial skill level for new players to experienced players is so immense, but its VERY easy close that gap! just practice!

Dont give up! Have Fun!
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:54 AM #20
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Quote:
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To qualify as a beginner you have to be at or under D4 ranking.
so what about players who are un ranked and have been playing for a while/ can handle them selves. ?

Alot of GOOD players cant afford to play nationally and are unranked. I dont like the idea of saying D4 and under. alot of people who play D4 could play higher but dont think they are good enough to do so.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:58 AM #21
firefoxx04
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
firefoxx04 supports Bob Gurnsey
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I will say one thing, Getting your *** kicked is how you get better. I understand that it might be intimidating, especially at first.

Your goal should be to get your son in with a group of experienced players that can play along side him and help him progress. I know i didnt go from being brand new to experienced by playing against people who had also never played. I got my *** kicked in tournaments over and over until it clicked and i became who i am now.
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