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Old 10-06-2008, 09:16 PM #43
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Here is what I will do.... it sounds like everyone has the same legitimate complaint and that is the inconsistent reffing at all the events.

Here is what I will do... I will talk to Mark w/ KEE about what sort of sponsorship deal can be done as payment to a full time reffing crew for national NPPL/PSP events. I will then make in my Field/Promoter agreement that the field cover the food and hotel costs for that reffing crew.

This additional expense may make it difficult to come to an agreement with host fields, but it is something I will try and do.

Keep in mind, that this will NOT solve all the issues. There will still be bad and missed calls regardless of how skilled the reffing crew is. One thing will be for sure though, it will be consistent.

If there are any teams who are planning on playing nationally that would like to be a full time reffing crew, please contact me at paintballtourney@cox.net

I'm thinking I only need this crew for Sunday only. I think on Saturday since it is a 3man, the normal reffing crew from the field can cover that.

Will that make everyone happy if I TRIED and made this happen???

Dan
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:17 PM #44
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Since you feel the need to defend yourself I am going to do the same.

Coming out and helping the day before (Friday) and still showing up sick doesn't count as letting my team down.

I didnt ask you to change the rules so dont put words into my mouth. I asked for the rule book so I could look into it. Not having the reffing rules in the rulebook kinda ended the arguement. If you do THINK back it was the other 2 that was arguing with you as I was looking through the rule book. Talking to you about rules doesnt apply to arguing, as which I was doing.

Coming up with the so called "story" was of the other 2 that was beside me that was at the event saturday as well, they had stated that edge wasnt there the whole day. Well I asked simply if they were there all day and you said you didnt know and that you would check up on it. So I simply stated that maybe there should be a list of names written down so that it would keep track of the names that reffed. No Harm no Foul.

If you have a list of peoples names that reffed thats all you had to say. But u do remember you counteract yourself with saying that if 3 of them come up to you and say that they were there, there is nothing you can do. If you had a list they wouldnt need to come up to you. Dont try to make me look like that BAD guy on this one.

Newton's Laws applys to many things (for every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction) in which why I'm defending myself now.

The different between 21 and 18 is really nothing. I cant help it if the person serving is handing drinks to me. Their fault, their job not mine.

Obligations you say...Never missed an MPS tournament...
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:18 PM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-9 View Post
Heres a good change!
And this was suggested to me a long time ago from girls playing out at my old field and my girlfriend not wanting to use the bathrooms.

Get a female only port-o-pot.
Guys, we all bring our female companions along and we know about the girl anatomy, and well also how they view them as gross.
I had to take my girlfriend right in the middle of the toruney to a QuickTime to use the bathroom.lol
By doing this, this will also atract a better family atmosphere.
Thus, pb grows and so does MPS
That is an interesting and odd request But I see the need for it
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:18 PM #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintballTourney2 View Post
Here is what I will do.... it sounds like everyone has the same legitimate complaint and that is the inconsistent reffing at all the events.

Here is what I will do... I will talk to Mark w/ KEE about what sort of sponsorship deal can be done as payment to a full time reffing crew for national NPPL/PSP events. I will then make in my Field/Promoter agreement that the field cover the food and hotel costs for that reffing crew.

This additional expense may make it difficult to come to an agreement with host fields, but it is something I will try and do.

Keep in mind, that this will NOT solve all the issues. There will still be bad and missed calls regardless of how skilled the reffing crew is. One thing will be for sure though, it will be consistent.

If there are any teams who are planning on playing nationally that would like to be a full time reffing crew, please contact me at paintballtourney@cox.net

I'm thinking I only need this crew for Sunday only. I think on Saturday since it is a 3man, the normal reffing crew from the field can cover that.

Will that make everyone happy if I TRIED and made this happen???

Dan
Sounds like an awesome idea to me.
Definitely try to do that Dan.
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:21 PM #47
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what ever Jordan...
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:26 PM #48
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Dan if you would like a list of edge army people reffing and the times they show up pm me, i was there at 6 in the morning i know when everyone who showed up and when.
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:47 PM #49
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Part of the change we (DZ) had to do this year was how we compensated our referees. The only way the MPS event was economically possible was with referees that worked as part of their sponsorship with the field. Paying referees from somewhere else will not be possible. Just the costs of travel for these hypothetical non associated referees would be huge.

I have been around tourney paintball for longer than some of you have been alive. I have NEVER seen an event where someone who lost did not complain loudly about bad calls. The higher the stakes, the louder the complaint. A long time ago we (as players) learned that we had to play well enough, that we could still win after bad calls against us. Bad call always happens.

The more thankless the job of refereeing becomes, the more expensive it is to get referees. As many here know, refereeing is not easy.
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:54 PM #50
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There are only a few reasons to possibly ever replay a game. 1. Safety stoppage(Usually never happens) 2. False start that is caused by someone other then head ref. (Someone on the sideline yelling Go to false start a team, etc...)

Probably could have won? Shoulda, coulda, woulda...But you didn't. Now lets talk about the missed calls against you that you got away with, do you want to go ahead and thank the refs for missing them, I seen one of your teammates in one game get rid of or have wiped away by the same refs to clearly make up for the two calls that your *****ing about...Go ahead and thank them same refs, its the same guys that made a bad call against you. Go ahead we are all waiting....didn't think so.

All I hear are a bunch of excuses for loosing, If you would have stepped up every other game then you probably would not be blaming a ref now would you. If your team had played better the whole day then one or two bad calls should not have cost you. You have to bring your A game or plan on going home broke. I cant tell you how many bad calls we have gotten over the years, but We don't make excuses after the fact. Either you have "Game" or you have "Excuses". Winners win and loser make excuses...


Mayhem congrats with winning this event and L2 Series! See you boys at practice we have some pain awaiting you gents...LOL
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:08 PM #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJT View Post
Since you feel the need to defend yourself I am going to do the same.

Coming out and helping the day before (Friday) and still showing up sick doesn't count as letting my team down.

I didnt ask you to change the rules so dont put words into my mouth. I asked for the rule book so I could look into it. Not having the reffing rules in the rulebook kinda ended the arguement. If you do THINK back it was the other 2 that was arguing with you as I was looking through the rule book. Talking to you about rules doesnt apply to arguing, as which I was doing.

Coming up with the so called "story" was of the other 2 that was beside me that was at the event saturday as well, they had stated that edge wasnt there the whole day. Well I asked simply if they were there all day and you said you didnt know and that you would check up on it. So I simply stated that maybe there should be a list of names written down so that it would keep track of the names that reffed. No Harm no Foul.

If you have a list of peoples names that reffed thats all you had to say. But u do remember you counteract yourself with saying that if 3 of them come up to you and say that they were there, there is nothing you can do. If you had a list they wouldnt need to come up to you. Dont try to make me look like that BAD guy on this one.

Newton's Laws applys to many things (for every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction) in which why I'm defending myself now.

The different between 21 and 18 is really nothing. I cant help it if the person serving is handing drinks to me. Their fault, their job not mine.

Obligations you say...Never missed an MPS tournament...
Look at page 6 section 4.03 in the rule book it states
"4.03 – Teams who ref an event for a Host Field will receive a 7 points for that event providing that the team has at least half of their Original Players at the event refing. If a team refs two events or more, that team will receive an average number of points up to that event"

We had six players at the first event. Four of them were at the field by 6 am on Saturday that is 66%. The other two non OP's were there by 6am as well. The other OP's were there by 10am. All 8 of our players were in attendance. We also had our coach and head team scouter there as well. I'm not sure how anyone can logically argue we had 3 players there.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:09 PM #52
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I don't think reffing teams should get the same amount of points as the first place team.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:20 PM #53
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Quote:
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We had six players at the first event. Four of them were at the field by 6 am on Saturday that is 66%. The other two non OP's were there by 6am as well. The other OP's were there by 10am. All 8 of our players were in attendance. We also had our coach and head team scouter there as well. I'm not sure how anyone can logically argue we had 3 players there.
I'm not sure u grasped the point that was being made. Nobody said anything about u having three players out there? Dan said that if 3 guys came up to him out of the 5 man squad then there was nothing he could do. With the 2 guys beside me arguing that the majority wasnt there. Regardless of weither or not you guys were there I was just asking the question.

Events over with. Good Job to everyone.

Edge Army Good Luck at Cup
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:27 PM #54
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Dan,

I think each field should provide thier D2 team to ref on Sunday. As much as we all like to play we can all sit out one event to ref it for the series. I would rather see the money spent on price packages then to pay one reffing crew for all the traveling. I can hear it now that the traveling reffing crew is bias so we aren't playing all of these events because they suck at reffing...Of course its not there playing ability but the refs calls. Until we find away to deal with out each of us having a ******* then we will always have to deal with these damn excuses. Each team needs to realize that the teams they are reffing will at some point be reffing them so the better that you ref you can figure your peers will do the same. Most of the individuals *****ing have not reffed at this level to begin with.

The whole reffing points came down to this, Mayhem had a one point advantage on Edge going into this event. Edge got max points and were still able to play the event and possibly knock mayhem out of the top two positions of which they needed the first or second place spot to guarantee the series prize, after the edge had gotten the 7 points. Thus edge could have finished last and still won the series because of reffing sat.

Maybe the answer would be to average there reffing and placement in that tournament.

After the performance of the little green shiats that its a moot point now. I can understand both sides I would prefer a series win to be settled on the field rather then winning by a technicality myself. But you cant produce rules for all things that are going to happen.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:40 PM #55
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Can that officially be there nickname now? "the little green shiats" Hat's off to Mayhem's play all year!

Good luck to Fatal Effect at Cup as well
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:47 PM #56
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why would you allow an open player to play in the l2. there are enough people playing down already, why is there a need to have more. there are teams that have players or complete teams that have or are going to play d3 or higher and are playing in the rookie division. maybe my definition of a rookie is different than others. thanks
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:48 PM #57
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I don't think reffing teams should get the same amount of points as the first place team.

i agree, if it was just flat out 7 points, but no bonus points so it would be equal to 3rd, thats fine. but honestly, it doesnt matter that much, the teams that placed above us, were great teams, honestly, every team out there was great, no matter how much screamin and yellin about bad calls and what could of happened if that player had stayed in, at the end of the day, it was an amazing event, if a team really has that big of a problem with the event, then play somewhere else, so we can still hold a great tournament, and bring in new teams and not scare them off because of all of the arguing over calls and dragging it out all the time.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:52 PM #58
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I acually love the idea of allowing a L1 player on a L2 roster. Gives one of the L1 (Open) players a chance to compete with the majority or where teams are at. The 3 to 4 teams in L1 maybe fun but playing 10-15 teams in L2 is way better. It allows everyone in L2 to get an experienced player.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:56 PM #59
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i think it would be a great idea to have 1 L1 player be able to play down, it would give more competition, but at the same time would make people get a lot better by playing against better teams, and in general make the series more exciting, and better overall play. if anything that L1 player could help teams develope and learn how to play the sport better
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:58 PM #60
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Can we get back to the point ladies and continue with the ideas for 2009? 

1. Local refs are a necessary evil. You have to have them and you have to take what comes with them sometimes. The traveling ultimate ref is a great idea and could provide the consistency necessary from event to event. If the ultimate can hold a little training session with the local refs early before the event starts I think the calls would be better and there would be less drama. One thing I would do is get the teams that are reffing and split them up and have some working L4 and some working L3. When an entire team refs together there is too much socializing and not enough TCB. I would have them swap fields every so often also. If only one field and enough refs then rotate them in and out. If the ultimate ref sees some refs as better then others then he can make the call to have them stay in more or the full time. Don’t feel bad if you’re a crappy ref. Apparently lots of them are.  If the players would commit to reffing on the same level as they expect when they are playing reffing wouldn’t be an issue.

2. APPA is a good idea. More professional and I like the documentation of who’s played what and the history of the players and teams.

3. Reffing points are good but I agree with awarding an average of event points earned versus first place points. It is consistent with their performance as players and most closely represents the points they may have earned playing the event. Don’t round it. However it turns out is just reality.

4. Bonus points for playing every event are appropriate. Without consistent participation there would be no series or at least lesser prizes. This motivates teams to play every event.

5. A whistle or horn to start a game is a good idea. Again, consistency.

6. As for the porta-potty I just take my squirt bottle I clean hits with to the pot when I go. Maybe the field can chain a bottle in the porta-potty. I’m a man and I don’t want to sit in anyone’s pee either.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:59 PM #61
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On the topic of hiring a reffing crew, you heard it directly from a host field. It wouldn't work financially to hire in a crew. So that idea is more than likely out the window.

I've already said that I'm going to probably do the "average" for reffing points next season. so that should be the end of discussion for all the reffing points.

Lets move on to the next topic.

Dan
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:05 PM #62
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having field layouts put out a few weeks before the tournament was nice, i know not all teams are able to set up exactly what they layout is, i know we werent, but we got as close as we could to it, and played on it still, because no matter what it looks like on paper, itll be different in person. this is probably a call for the host fields, just would be nice to try and do this for all of the events. other than that, everyone just try and bring more teams in, and dan, what your saying will change next year is all sounding great.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:10 PM #63
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redistribute the prizes so teams have incentive to move up. something's wrong when level 3 is more profitable than level 1
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