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Old 08-18-2008, 11:54 PM #1
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Can someone help me to understand exactly what 4 eyes do that 2 do not?

I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I'm having a hard time figuring out what an additional set of eyes can do. The description I see whenever its mentioned is that the board measures the time it takes for a ball to get from the first set of eyes to the second, and remembers it for that shooting session. Then, the gun can fire exactly that amount of time after the top eyes read a ball approaching the breach.

Now, standard 2 eye logic simply includes a check in the firing sequence of the gun. When a trigger pull is processed, an if statement checks if the breach is loaded and ready to fire. If the check passes, the marker cycles normally. If the check fails, the gun skips the shot.

Either way, the gun is firing as soon as the firing call is made, be it from a trigger pull or other firing mode activation. At best, it seems like the 4 eyes upgrade is essentialy making use of 2 eyes, they're just placed higher in the breach. The bottom normal eyes are only used for calibration of the top eyes.

Is this assessment correct? Either way, I don't really understand how the 4 eyes could add any kind of performance upgrade, except for allowing you to accurately delay a shot that was registered without a ball in the breach and have it go off late. Am I missing something here?

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I didn't see it in the sticky and I don't pay for use of this site's search engine. If you must, flame away.
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:51 AM #2
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the 4 eyes allow for faster semi shooting. if you use psp ramp, it wont really do anything. the top set of eyes tell the board to energize the solenoid a little earlier so that as soon as the ball breaks the bottom eyes, it is ready to fire before hand, and the gun will fire as soon as all 4 eyes are blocked.

with 2 eyes, the solenoid isnt energized until the eyes at the bottom are blocked by the ball, so there is that several milisecond delay
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:54 AM #3
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i didn't realize the process wasn't instant. how long does it take to charge the soli? it doesn't seem like that could possibly inhibit you from reaching your max rof unless it was like 200 bps.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:04 AM #4
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well i dont know the exact numbers, but the process is not instant. there is no point in knowing how exactly faster it recharges the solenoid. all that matters is that it works. bob wouldnt have a 4 eye feature for nothing
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:11 AM #5
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its been years since there have been any serious innovations in gun design. manufacturers will do anything to set their product apart from the herd, whether its actually an improvement or a marketing gimmick. dont get me wrong, i love my marq to death, but im getting a strong feeling this upgrade is a complete gimmick. i've never heard solenoid charge time described before in relation to any gun. if we're talking about semi here, you would need to be firing the gun a second time before the solenoid has charged in order for there to be a problem. it seems to me that this is way to small a fraction of a second for there to be another pull. the only possible way to get another would be a pull reading error, the kind that denounce eliminates all together.

the only advantage left is an increase in responsiveness for shots fired by whatever tiny fraction of a second you save by pre charging. technically, this would be an improvement in performance, but given the time overhead of firing a paintball from firing sequence to air travel time, we're talking about a borderline unmeasurably small increase.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:26 AM #6
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The pneumatic delay is 10 to 15ms per cycle.

Most manufacturers overcame this problem by going to better (often direct acting) noids and manifold mounts.
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:08 AM #7
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Originally Posted by morph2k4 View Post
its been years since there have been any serious innovations in gun design. manufacturers will do anything to set their product apart from the herd, whether its actually an improvement or a marketing gimmick. dont get me wrong, i love my marq to death, but im getting a strong feeling this upgrade is a complete gimmick. i've never heard solenoid charge time described before in relation to any gun. if we're talking about semi here, you would need to be firing the gun a second time before the solenoid has charged in order for there to be a problem. it seems to me that this is way to small a fraction of a second for there to be another pull. the only possible way to get another would be a pull reading error, the kind that denounce eliminates all together.

the only advantage left is an increase in responsiveness for shots fired by whatever tiny fraction of a second you save by pre charging. technically, this would be an improvement in performance, but given the time overhead of firing a paintball from firing sequence to air travel time, we're talking about a borderline unmeasurably small increase.
i totally agree. i personally dont have the 4c system, i find it pointless to me. hehe
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:06 AM #8
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There's also another aspect that comes into play with some markers. Intimidators, for example, have a built in delay called "bolt delay". It's a static delay (usually in the 15ms range) that prevents the eyes from turning back on while the bolt is on it's backward travel. If this setting is too low, the eyes see the bolt, think it's a ball and queue up the next shot causing a skipped shot or chopped paint. With 4C eyes, you know exactly when the ball is moving thanks to an extra set of inputs...the 2nd set of eyes and can dynamically calculate the bolt delay time and shoot as soon as the bolt has returned and the paint has dropped. The noid is already charged and good to go.

The difference in my Vice between the standard 2 eyed version and 4C version in semi mode is striking. I've let several people locally test out the 4C eyes to see if "it's worth it" or that it's "not a gimmick" and invariably they all go out and purchase the eyes as there's a noticable difference when shooting a rope in semi mode.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:29 PM #9
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Uh...what? I'm pretty sure 4C has nothing to do with bolt delay, although some boards with even 2 eyes look for a gap in the ballstack as confirmation the bolt has returned. WAS 2.9 and frenzy 1.5, for instance.

Gen5s are default bolt delay at 10ms, gen3 and earlier 15ms. I run my eigenrammed gen2 timmy down to 12ms no problem, but usually use the WAS 2.9 setting with no preset bolt delay.

Unless the 4C eyes are staggered in the X dimension (back and forward in the breech) I can't see how they'd help....
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:42 PM #10
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4 eyes

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Old 08-19-2008, 02:04 PM #11
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I wonder if similar programming (or effectiveness, at least) could be achieved with a higher set of 2. I've been wondering this actually since I heard of the 4 eye system, but never thought to discuss it here.

Seems to me that if the solenoid requires an amount of time to energize, that amount of time could be roughly close to the amount of time a ball takes to drop fully into place... measured out, I wonder if a single set of higher-placed eyes could do just as well.
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:04 PM #12
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With 90% of all humans bodies being capped <16 bps semi, 99% of all humans bodies being capped <20, and I've never even heard of someone doing a legit semi over 24, it's completely useless. Sure, cuts down on theoretical cycle time...but with the current limitations of the human anatomy, it doesn't do anything for you in the real world.
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:39 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlmiller View Post
With 90% of all humans bodies being capped <16 bps semi, 99% of all humans bodies being capped <20, and I've never even heard of someone doing a legit semi over 24, it's completely useless. Sure, cuts down on theoretical cycle time...but with the current limitations of the human anatomy, it doesn't do anything for you in the real world.
Where'd you get those magical numbers? Are you a Biometric Scientist?

I think the point here is to lessen the gun's response time, as with any faster-firing method, mod or equipment.

While I personally am not interested in faster firing for play, I do find myself often curious about the science of our industry.
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Old 08-19-2008, 03:10 PM #14
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so we're just talking about a more responsive shot after a trigger pull? that doesn't seem like it could possibly change anything if theres a minimum of at least 25ms before another pull is registered. its probably alot more then that. that would give you 40bps o.o
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:45 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
Uh...what? I'm pretty sure 4C has nothing to do with bolt delay, although some boards with even 2 eyes look for a gap in the ballstack as confirmation the bolt has returned. WAS 2.9 and frenzy 1.5, for instance.

Gen5s are default bolt delay at 10ms, gen3 and earlier 15ms. I run my eigenrammed gen2 timmy down to 12ms no problem, but usually use the WAS 2.9 setting with no preset bolt delay.

Unless the 4C eyes are staggered in the X dimension (back and forward in the breech) I can't see how they'd help....
Sure it does. I believe Will even posted something to that effect in that marathon Intimidator thread back in the spring, though admittedly I'm too lazy to go find the thread at the moment (with yard work beconing me ).

WAS used to have an eye delay setting but removed it in the 2.9 version making it static.

With 4C eyes, you don't need a static bolt delay setting at all, the extra set of eyes is detecting the movement of the paint and knows when the bolt is out of the way and when the paint is ready (and in the breach) and the marker is thereby queue up another shot. No more artificially long, static, delay times in that sequence. The calculation of those times is now dynamic based on the movement of the paint.
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:55 PM #16
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WAS 2.9 and many other codes don't utilize a set bolt delay, they monitor the bolt. You don't need 2 sets of eyes to do this.

How does 4C give you more information during the chambering of the ball and bolt retraction? Boards can see the gap between bolt and ball as it passes (in fact, if I had to guess I would say that bolt delay is there to stop this in the first place), although this is not necessary, and then due to the spherical geometry and loader limits, the bottom eye will always become unblocked before another ball loads. Just a change in code is sufficient to know when the bolt unblocks the eyes, aas long as you are ignoring the small gap as the ball is chambered. If in fact 4C changes the bolt delay, which I doubt given how the boards work, its from deficient 2 eye coding.

All 4C does is allows the board to know when a paintball will reach the bottom of the breech sooner than a 2c system...because it is higher.

In fact, if you had a board with the coding for it, you could safely attain rates of fire that high with ONLY the top eye (and a timer from the time the bolt opens).

This sin't to say I think 4C is worthless: its one possible fix for the pneumatic delay issue, and it will make your max ROF (in bursts and sustained ramping) faster.

Biomechanically, the 1-2 action can be VERY fast...I had an asian friend who i goldwaved at 21bps on an 03 shocker who had a distinct pattern of 1-2 bursting - the rate would easily have exceeded 25bps. 4C is a clear advantage in this case of being more on a one to one basis with your fingers.
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:53 PM #17
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Quote:
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How does 4C give you more information during the chambering of the ball and bolt retraction?
How does it not? Think of the eyes being parallel points along a Y Axis. The Bolt only moves along the X Axis and is wider than both of the points along the X-Axis. The eyes know when the bolt passes as they're blocked simultaneously with no gap between them. They know when a ball falls into place based on the fact that balls can only fall along a Y-Axis. The nature of this is such that the top eye will be blocked first and then the second. This input differentiates between bolt movement and ball movement. Bolt delay settings are a fixed delay time before the eyes turn back on. During that time the bolt won't cycle.

Even the older boards that monitor bolt movement/paint falling into the breach, etc. still had to wait out that physical 12-15 ms of time before cycling again....in addition to any other delay time. Some of the other delays could be concurrent or consecutive with the bolt delay. With 4 eyes, you have a better indicator of when exactly the ball is in that breach making the extra wait time meaningless. You have a fixed setting in there as a precaution in case the eyes go down, but if I understand the operation of the 4C eyes correctly that variable is no longer fixed at 10 but is dynamic based on the input of the eyes. The setting of 10 is a fail safe.

Quote:
All 4C does is allows the board to know when a paintball will reach the bottom of the breech sooner than a 2c system...because it is higher.
The only problem is that this knowledge alone doesn't account for the cumulative reduction in delay times. Also knowing when the ball is in the breach through two external sensors eliminates the need to take and utilize any bolt delay times.

Quote:
Assume it takes 15mS to get the bolt to start moving. Calculating 20mS for a ball to fall past upper sensor into final position at lower sensor. Then in this case the solenoid can be started 5mS after the upper sensor is triggered. 15mS later the ball will reach final
position at the same time the bolt will start to move forward. This takes out all wasted time in the cycle. --From the 4C site
This illustrates both points. By "getting the bolt moving" you no longer need a bolt delay time. You have a dynamic input from the second set of eyes. I also get the impression we're partially saying the same thing. Regardless...

Quote:
In fact, if you had a board with the coding for it, you could safely attain rates of fire that high with ONLY the top eye (and a timer from the time the bolt opens).
I very much agree with you here.

Quote:
This sin't to say I think 4C is worthless: its one possible fix for the pneumatic delay issue, and it will make your max ROF (in bursts and sustained ramping) faster.
And here as well but I believe that what you're talking about and what I'm discussion are done in aggregate, simultaneously thereby removing cumulative delay times in different areas.

Quote:
Biomechanically, the 1-2 action can be VERY fast...I had an asian friend who i goldwaved at 21bps on an 03 shocker who had a distinct pattern of 1-2 bursting - the rate would easily have exceeded 25bps. 4C is a clear advantage in this case of being more on a one to one basis with your fingers.
Yes, I mean we're talking fractions of a second, but enough to get a few more balls out each second and it's also significantly noticable when shooting a Vice or Marq without 4C eyes and one with 4C eyes. I used to use other people's Vice's and Protege's as an example at the field to demonstrate the speed, but they all put in the upgraded eyes.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:02 PM #18
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Even my Yakuza series still have an adjustable bolt delay setting. This is due to the eye system being capable of seeing a slight gap between the ball and the bolt face as the bolt travels forward. That's the purpose of the setting.

All my software, even from the original Matrix board and DM chips, has used the eye system to dynamically detect when the bolt returns.

In general, there's at least a few milliseconds delay from when you energize the solenoid and the bolt actually moves in every single paintball marker. In the case of the intimidator the bolt doesn't even move until after the dwell time completely ends.

Because you know this delay exists, you can theoretically energize the solenoid earlier, assuming you know a paintball will be fed. That's where the 4C eye system comes into play.

Using the top and bottom set of eyes you can calculate exactly how fast a ball is being fed, and make assumptions on the next ball coming down the feed neck. If the eyes are detecting consecutive balls in a row at very high feed rates, then you can start energizing the solenoid when the top eye detects a paintball, instead of waiting for it to cross the bottom. This lets you cut into the end of the previous firing cycle, so that the delay time between the solenoid energizing and the bolt moving isn't as noticed. You continue to make the calculation every shot, so that when the feed rate slows, you switch back to using the bottom eye set.

In theory you could potentially use just the top eye set, but in reality this doesn't work reliably. Even when you add a significant ball-in-place delay it's possible to chop a ball with only the top eye set in use because paintballs have a tendency to "swirl" while coming down the feed neck (think water going down a drain), and since the top eye placement in the Marq/Vice is at the very top edge of the bolt, this happens quite often. I spent a very long time experimenting with just the top eye set enabled to try to make it reliable, but it simply isn't.

So what does 4C give you besides a higher rate of fire? Believe it or not, better consistency (in terms of rate of fire, not velocity), even in capped firing mode leagues like the PSP or Millennium. Why? The effective cycle time is shorter, which means that the bolt spends more time in the open position, and gives your loader more time to feed the next paintball. To me, this is a big deal, as I was the pit-tech for Trauma for over 4 years, and trying to keep loaders in tip-top shape so that people could have a gun that shot a perfect 14.9 bps was a pain in the ***. It gives more room for error in the other equipment.


In the end I think people blow this discussion way out of proportion. If you don't care about extreme rates of fire or more consistent strings, don't buy it. It does help, but it also won't ruin your day if you don't use it. I just feel that if you have a Marq or Vice which can use it, you should, since it's one of the advantages of owning a Bob Long gun right now.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:30 PM #19
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I hope that the confusion hasn't resulted from the terms "bolt delay" and "pneumatic lag". Pneumatic lag is the ONLY delay that 4c eliminates, the rest of the cycle can and has been optimized by 2 eyes. EDIT: I love to see Will in these threads.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:39 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
Uh...what? I'm pretty sure 4C has nothing to do with bolt delay, although some boards with even 2 eyes look for a gap in the ballstack as confirmation the bolt has returned. WAS 2.9 and frenzy 1.5, for instance.

Gen5s are default bolt delay at 10ms, gen3 and earlier 15ms. I run my eigenrammed gen2 timmy down to 12ms no problem, but usually use the WAS 2.9 setting with no preset bolt delay.

Unless the 4C eyes are staggered in the X dimension (back and forward in the breech) I can't see how they'd help....
the eyes are staggered, as you can see from the diagram below your post .

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Old 08-19-2008, 09:58 PM #21
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Quote:
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EDIT: I love to see Will in these threads.
Yeah, I like how he comes across like a regular guy who chooses to write in such a way for the non-techies types too understand.
More so, his choice to embrace the 4C system, which not only validates it's worth, but more importantly gets his efforts, resulting in some of the finest electronic control devices and software paintball has to offer.
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