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Old 08-12-2008, 09:50 AM #1
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Question about Brackets that have 6 teams

How do they determine who plays who since you only play 4 games and not 5? Is there a method to the madness or just random.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:02 AM #2
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2.3.1.3. In preliminary brackets of 6 teams, each team will play each other team in the
bracket once, except the top-seeded team will not play the 6th-seeded team, the 2ndseeded
team will not play the 5th-seeded team, and the 3rd-seeded team will not play
the 4th-seeded team.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:35 AM #3
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I really never did understand why they do it that way...

As it is now, the 6th seed gets to avoid playing the highest seeded team in the bracket- while the other teams they are competing with all have to play that team. Seems to give an advantage to the lower seeded team.

You'd think they would reward the higher seeds by having them not play the team right below them in seeding (and theoretically the toughest other team in thier bracket). The highest seed team earned that ranking based upon play, and, theoretically is favored to win the division- so, they should get the break of not having to play thier toughest competition. Instead, the lowest seed gets the break. That doesn't seem right to me. Just my 2 cents.

Now, as to how they schedule for brackets with 7 teams (neo d3 five man)...who knows? The rules don't address that, do they?
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:06 AM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billb1145 View Post
I really never did understand why they do it that way...

As it is now, the 6th seed gets to avoid playing the highest seeded team in the bracket- while the other teams they are competing with all have to play that team. Seems to give an advantage to the lower seeded team.

You'd think they would reward the higher seeds by having them not play the team right below them in seeding (and theoretically the toughest other team in thier bracket). The highest seed team earned that ranking based upon play, and, theoretically is favored to win the division- so, they should get the break of not having to play thier toughest competition. Instead, the lowest seed gets the break. That doesn't seem right to me. Just my 2 cents.

Now, as to how they schedule for brackets with 7 teams (neo d3 five man)...who knows? The rules don't address that, do they?
I brought this point up last year as well. Chris said they want it to be more fair first, then give an advantage to the best ranked teams. Or something of that nature of being fair.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:12 AM #5
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i think the reason the 1st seeded team doesn't play the last seeded team is because the higher team will most likely destroy the lower team most likely ruining the lower teams chance at moving on, so they probably do that to give the higher team a challenge and the lower team a break.

at least thats what i think
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:17 AM #6
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well, yeah....but I think the higher ranked team is the one that EARNED the break, rather than the lower ranked team. that's the whole point of seeding...to avoid a fluke team making it on. Make the lower seeds earn thier spots the same way the high seeds did, don't give them an easier road just cuz they are low ranked!

Besides, if that 1 seed would crush the 6 seed, but they don't play and the 6 seed moves on, logically, don't you think those guys (the 6 seed) would get crushed in the second prelim round? Make the 6 seed earn thier spot! If they beat the 1 seed in thier bracket, they may just have a chance to win some games when they move on!

In any given bracket, you usually have one team that can and should beat everyone else. Then you have a team or two that cannot win a game. In a bracket of 6 teams, with 2 moving on, it very usually comes down to only a one or two game difference (at most) to see what team gets that second spot. If I'm the 6 seed, I'm loving the fact that I don't play the killer team in my bracket...but that the other 4 teams I'm competing against for the second spot to advance out of my division all have to. That means, realistically, I can drop one game against any of them head to head, and still make it in.

For example... 6 teams...team 1,2,3,4,5,6. Team one crushes everyone, and goes undefeated. They take the 1st slot out of the division to advance. Teams 2,3,4,5,6 all beat up on each other. When its all said and done, team 2 is 3-1- they only lost to team 1. Meanwhile, team 6 is also 3-1- they only lost to team 2. Team 6 moves on due to higher "average score"- but that average is skewed cuz they didn't play team 1- and team 1 absolutely pummelled team 2, and brought down thier average. So, even though team 2 beat up on team 6, they still don't advance, but team 6 does.

Does that seem fair?

Last edited by billb1145 : 08-12-2008 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:50 AM #7
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Heck yes I love starting a thread that rolls on and on. Thank you for the answer, should have just looked in the rules huh.lol
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:17 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billb1145 View Post
well, yeah....but I think the higher ranked team is the one that EARNED the break, rather than the lower ranked team. that's the whole point of seeding...to avoid a fluke team making it on. Make the lower seeds earn thier spots the same way the high seeds did, don't give them an easier road just cuz they are low ranked!

Besides, if that 1 seed would crush the 6 seed, but they don't play and the 6 seed moves on, logically, don't you think those guys (the 6 seed) would get crushed in the second prelim round? Make the 6 seed earn thier spot! If they beat the 1 seed in thier bracket, they may just have a chance to win some games when they move on!

In any given bracket, you usually have one team that can and should beat everyone else. Then you have a team or two that cannot win a game. In a bracket of 6 teams, with 2 moving on, it very usually comes down to only a one or two game difference (at most) to see what team gets that second spot. If I'm the 6 seed, I'm loving the fact that I don't play the killer team in my bracket...but that the other 4 teams I'm competing against for the second spot to advance out of my division all have to. That means, realistically, I can drop one game against any of them head to head, and still make it in.

For example... 6 teams...team 1,2,3,4,5,6. Team one crushes everyone, and goes undefeated. They take the 1st slot out of the division to advance. Teams 2,3,4,5,6 all beat up on each other. When its all said and done, team 2 is 3-1- they only lost to team 1. Meanwhile, team 6 is also 3-1- they only lost to team 2. Team 6 moves on due to higher "average score"- but that average is skewed cuz they didn't play team 1- and team 1 absolutely pummelled team 2, and brought down thier average. So, even though team 2 beat up on team 6, they still don't advance, but team 6 does.

Does that seem fair?
Is it fair for team 6, (which most of the time isn't even a bad new team, it's just a new ID), to have to play seeds 1 2 3 4 in their bracket? No, not really. Being seeded high still gives you an advantage that you don't have to play anyone higher than you, if you're in like the top 6 or so depending on how many brackets.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:28 PM #9
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the only frustration I have being in a 6 team bracket is how the top 2 move on, that makes it more difficult for my bracket because having 6 teams. If you are a 5 team bracket which most are, you have a better chance of moving on to the ochos.

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Old 08-12-2008, 12:33 PM #10
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There's not much they can do to get around that. They'll be wildcards at NEO as they are taking top 16, so they'll be chances for you to make it on even if you are not top 2.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:34 PM #11
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Fatty- I understand where you are coming from, and can agree with you up to a point.

There really is no "FAIR" way to do it...someone is going to have a harder time than someone else by not having to play the exact same teams and schedule.

I just think that the team with the higher ranking has EARNED the advantage, versus a new team. Ultimately, it does not matter- if you want to be the best you have to beat the best eventually...whether it is in the prelims or in the semis, or in the finals.

I just think, personally, that the teams with the track record (and the investment) deserve the advantage. Just my opinion, and I'm sure some folks will disagree.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:38 PM #12
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Fatty-

I stand corrected. I also just checked, in all the divisions from d2xball down to d4 5man, in each case NEO is taking better than 50% of the teams into the next round. So, it's not the top two in any division- in most cases its the top three, or at the very worst it's 4 wild cards that are 3rd place finishers.

I guess if you can't finish in the top 50% in your bracket, you probably shouldn't make it in anyway, huh?
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Old 08-12-2008, 01:42 PM #13
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Man you guys make good arguments both ways to this issue.
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Old 08-12-2008, 03:43 PM #14
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Seeding is not done to give the top seeded team an advantage. It's done to make sure no team has a BIGGER advantage than the top-seeded team.

1 plays 2, 3, 4, 5; schedule strength: 14
2 plays 1, 3, 4, 6; schedule strength: 14
3 plays 1, 2, 5, 6; schedule strength: 14
4 plays 1, 2, 5, 6; schedule strength: 14
5 plays 1, 3, 4, 6; schedule strength: (you guessed it) 14
6 plays 2, 3, 4, 5; schedule strength: 14

Everyone's strength of schedule is the same, ergo, fair bracket.

If you do it the 'other' way, it works out:

1 plays 3, 4, 5, 6; 18
2 plays 3, 4, 5, 6; 18
3 plays 1, 2, 5, 6; 14
4 plays 1, 2, 5, 6; 14
5 pays 1, 2, 3, 4; 10
6 plays 1, 2, 3, 4; 10

With teams 1 and 2 playing 3, 4, 5, 6 and teams 5 and 6 playing 1, 2, 3, 4 the brackets are not even CLOSE to fair.


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Old 08-12-2008, 03:53 PM #15
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thanks, Chris! I'm not sure I believe in the "schedule strength" method you use, but I can't fault your logic!

ps...are you in Pittsburg yet? Will schedules be out tonite?
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Old 08-12-2008, 03:57 PM #16
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late tonite im pretty sure or very early wed morning
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Old 08-12-2008, 04:13 PM #17
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Quote:
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thanks, Chris! I'm not sure I believe in the "schedule strength" method you use, but I can't fault your logic!

ps...are you in Pittsburg yet? Will schedules be out tonite?
Should be out in a couple hours hopefully - I'm making some adjustments.

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Old 08-12-2008, 06:35 PM #18
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sorry for the OT but i was wondering if you had ever considered when you use the scoreblast for texting schedules to teams also put a thing where you could sign up and a teams scores or just the nxl scores could get blasted to your phone?

i think it would be a pretty cool idea and i'm sure alot of people would appreciate it because we all can't sit on the computer for 4 days
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