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Old 06-03-2009, 02:45 PM #1
LotusElise
 
 
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What the Rev-I Should have been

I was bored and made this. It's a balanced spool-valve design with a sealed firing chamber based on the G3's design. Obviously this is just a rough-up. Frankly, the design seems so obvious not only am I not worrying about posting it, I'm surprised it hasn't been done yet.

Redone:


Original:

Last edited by LotusElise : 06-04-2009 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 06-03-2009, 02:57 PM #2
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AKA...the threshold.

The reason why that oring on the back wasn't added to any of the guns, from what i remember, is because of how the internals are milled, air would still get through the oring, and not totally shut off the air supply.

It has been thought of, and in my threshold when i ran an oring back there i would gain a pod or two, it just never was refined to be put into practical use.
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Old 06-03-2009, 03:05 PM #3
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No, the threshold is unbalanced. I actually made this to look very much like the gif I saw for the threshold design. Here is the threshold .gif from zdspb

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Old 06-03-2009, 03:12 PM #4
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isn't that a direct violation of dye's dump chamber sealing patent?

probably why they didn't. And making it balanced made it more complicated than it needed to be. They designed the marker to use the solenoid they had on had for the fusion, and to be honest I believe there is more potential for speed and efficiency with an unbalanced design.

It's just that due to patents most people aren't desiging markers to thier potential
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Old 06-03-2009, 04:16 PM #5
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I figured the only two patents that need to be worried about were DP's dump valve system, and the obligatory smart parts one. The way the firing chamber seals more closely resembles the shocker, not the matrix. Also, I don't really care for speed so much as smoothness, which was my whole reason to go spool valve as opposed to poppet. Besides, you could easily have a kind of prop shaft attached to the plug to increase efficiency and prevent rollbacks at the same time, so long as planet eclipse doesn't have the patent on that.
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:44 PM #6
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The DYE patent references using the bolt as a spooling shut off valve for the air supply, which the Shocker HE kit was in violation of, and probably the main reason for the IP deal that the two companies have together. That is why there are poppet based shut offs on aftermarked Ion bolts, as the patent does not cover that style of shut-off. The Hollowpoint predates the Geo by quite a bit with the anti roll back feature, which is not claimed in the PE patent application that is for their dual acting spool valve, but is supposed to be one of the claims in Nicad's application for the Hollowpoint. Making it dual acting wouldn't accomplish anything as the bolt is still biased forward the entire forward stroke as if it were a blow forward, but now has an additional face making it go forward with even more force than before.
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Old 06-04-2009, 12:19 AM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y0da900 View Post
The DYE patent references using the bolt as a spooling shut off valve for the air supply, which the Shocker HE kit was in violation of, and probably the main reason for the IP deal that the two companies have together. That is why there are poppet based shut offs on aftermarked Ion bolts, as the patent does not cover that style of shut-off. The Hollowpoint predates the Geo by quite a bit with the anti roll back feature, which is not claimed in the PE patent application that is for their dual acting spool valve, but is supposed to be one of the claims in Nicad's application for the Hollowpoint. Making it dual acting wouldn't accomplish anything as the bolt is still biased forward the entire forward stroke as if it were a blow forward, but now has an additional face making it go forward with even more force than before.
prolly wanted to bypass some patent... but which poppet style shut off are you referring to? all the bolts i can think of violate that patent...
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Old 06-04-2009, 12:22 AM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by new ion? View Post
prolly wanted to bypass some patent... but which poppet style shut off are you referring to? all the bolts i can think of violate that patent...
orange's nano unicorn upgrade i would assume.
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:30 AM #9
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Actually the first animated gif here is essentially a shocker.
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:35 AM #10
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Except it generates WAY more rearward force @ vent point - efficiency increase. There are multiple ways to skin that cat.

Also, the bolt as drawn is unremovable.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:17 AM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
Also, the bolt as drawn is unremovable.
this is where the engineers and the machinist fight. hahaha.





you wouldnt need for the bolt to be pushed forward, the rear of the bolt would already have forward force.

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Old 06-04-2009, 04:37 AM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
Except it generates WAY more rearward force @ vent point - efficiency increase. There are multiple ways to skin that cat.

Also, the bolt as drawn is unremovable.
Yes sir. I like to imagine that there are some pieces missing from that equation, like a multi section firing can (ala shocker).
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Old 06-04-2009, 09:37 AM #13
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The entire thing as drawn is unmanufacturable with simple, cost effective means because a larger bore is at the center surrounded by two smaller bores. This would require a sleeve to build and take apart, which would also make the bolt removeable. That kind of thing seems commonplace in high-end spool valve markers. Also, several measurements would have to be changed, as well as making the bolt's rear section and plug to make it truly balanced as yoda has pointed out (yes, I saw this but I was too lazy to make a new .gif)

@Lurker, that statement is unclear. Which were you saying was more efficient?

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Old 06-04-2009, 09:50 AM #14
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Just have to tweak the bolt sail section a bit and make it unbalanced, in such a way that the rearward force would provide the forward surface area instead (I mean, most of it).

OR...you could extend the bolt further back and balance it out in the rear. But then it'd be exactly like a backwards Shocker...heh
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Old 06-04-2009, 01:11 PM #15
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The "fixed" design should be more efficient - almost every spool valve naturally overdwells.
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Old 06-04-2009, 02:06 PM #16
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There, minor tweaks. Still not to scale, nor is it anything more than a rough sketch. Besides, while I was breaking Dye's patent, I went ahead and did the whole prop shaft thing, and no that's not the final shape of the prop shaft it's just a rough up.

Oh, and for those claiming that this is a backwards shocker, even though it does resemble one, there's at least one good improvement: this only uses 6 moving o-rings and 2 bumper o-rings while the shocker uses 8 moving o-rings and 2 bumper o-rings. Perhaps the title should now read "What the Shocker should have been."

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Old 06-04-2009, 02:35 PM #17
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TBH I would not bother adding a positive noid input - blow forward systems tend to work better anyway + you are fighting the dynamics of the system by having to vent that pressure before the bolt returns (instead of the drop in system pressure finding equilibrium, then naturally forcing the bolt back.

Natural dynamics are what you want for a robust, fast acting system.
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:24 PM #18
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Number of o-rings can be important if the design is folly, but it's by no means the deciding factor in a marker layout. One of the advantages Shockers have over the Matrix layout (this thread included) is that the Matrix design places the dump chamber physically as far away as possible from the marker's chamber. It requires all the stored pressure to be shunted down through the bolt sail section, expanding and wasting energy the whole time.....there's certainly no benefit to that.

Is why the Ion, Rail, and all the subsequent markers are laid out the way they are. If you place the piston section in front, just use the energy back there to move the bolt instead of worrying about balancing thisandthat. Sure the Matrix bolt would work (as would your animated marker once tweaked) but there isn't a night-and-day benefit to it compared to a blowforward.
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:27 AM #19
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You should see the first prototypes of the Threshy. VERY INTERESTING methods of achieving the "Dump Valve". Needless to say, simplicity won over. Unfortunately, the mill work on the later Threshys wasn't keep to a high level of Quality Control.
Thus the amount of time and money spent on the Rev-I to get it "right"..... and simple. (just the time spent on the windows was considerable....)

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