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Old 06-12-2008, 09:29 AM #22
Shockmanwo!man
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Originally Posted by TeamShellShock View Post
Have you ever tried exercising for half a day with little water and no food? Your giving little credit to how the body works....

The job is precise and in order to do that job properly there needs to be proper training, hydration, food and rest.


Haha, yes I do... I have a problem with my body regulating my body temp but somehow I still found a way to play soccer which is basically running for an hour and half during a game, and yes it is tough and we also had ridiculously tough practice and I live in Vegas and it's a fall sport so we start in July/August and we had two practices a day then... and yes, it's ****ty. I know that you need food and water to function as a human being but all the refs had stacks of water, it's not like they were water deprived and weren't hydrated, and if they weren't hydrated that's their own fault for not taking advantage of all that water... and every field was close enough to the food stands to run over and grab something if they didn't want to eat the snacks and fruit that were already provided to them, they get at 3-5 minutes between each game... I think that's a reasonable break considering they aren't the ones actually out there playing, it's not like they are running around non stop all day...

They had proper water (every field had a case of water that was replenished, if they don't drink it, that's on them...), proper food(they're supplied with fruits and snacks, if they don't eat, that's on them and they get an hour break, I'm pretty sure that's enough time to eat lunch, if they don't eat breakfast, once again, that's on them...), proper rest(they get that one hour rest just like players do, the PLAYERS only get one hour, most have to go back to the paddocks stock up and go right back out to get ready to play again, you don't hear them complaining they are hydrating and eating properly to keep PLAYING all day and they a few minutes between each game).... so maybe they do need more training... I don't know about that one. But I'd say yes they do.

Last edited by John : 06-13-2008 at 12:24 AM. Reason: Please stop avoiding the swear filter. Spell swear words correctly or don't use them.
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Old 06-12-2008, 10:48 AM #23
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Originally Posted by Shockmanwo!man View Post
they get at 3-5 minutes between each game... I think that's a reasonable break considering they aren't the ones actually out there playing, it's not like they are running around non stop all day...

They had proper water (every field had a case of water that was replenished, if they don't drink it, that's on them...), proper food(they're supplied with fruits and snacks, if they don't eat, that's on them and they get an hour break, I'm pretty sure that's enough time to eat lunch, if they don't eat breakfast, once again, that's on them...), proper rest(they get that one hour rest just like players do, the PLAYERS only get one hour, most have to go back to the paddocks stock up and go right back out to get ready to play again, you don't hear them complaining they are hydrating and eating properly to keep PLAYING all day and they a few minutes between each game).... so maybe they do need more training... I don't know about that one. But I'd say yes they do.
Refs only get the full hour for lunch if there field is on time (which depends on refs and teams)

So the players who play 8 games a day (generally with an hour in between each game) have a harder day then the refs who ref 70 games (2-5 minutes between each game)? So on Friday and Saturday players will play a max of 112 minutes, refs will do a max of 980 minutes. Refs show up earlier then (most) players, and leave after them as well.

John said it best
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More rest. More food and water. more training. Less games reffed. More experience. More feedback on how to improve and you will get better results.
P.S Somtimes the snacks really suck
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Old 06-12-2008, 05:23 PM #24
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Only 70 games in a day??? your slackin o yer pimpin there Im sorry to say yall have no clue to what bad reffing is.What we have now is 1000 times better than it was before 2002.There is no sport on the planet 'cept maybe golf that refferees wont make a bad call which will cost a team that has thousands of dollars in investment the game match or set. Did they re-flip the coin in the Thanksgiving day NFL game between Detroit and Pittsburg??? The ref obviously blew it a coin toss for cryin out loud.Are they going to replay all the games that the NBA ref Doughnagy reffed???Watch some major sports youll see tons of missed stuff.What im tryin to tell you is that if a ref blows a call you suck it up and play harder your next match .The best defense against bad calls it to blow the other team off the field so there can be no blown calls.
Now on to the more water more rest you get better refs.IT IS 100% TRUE!!!!! I reffed in the NXL where some days we had 10 matches averageing 22 points a match. Thats 220 5 man games in a day. 7 min between games and 5 min for half time and a 1/2 hour for lunch.The last matches on days like those were train wrecks for we just couldn't function up to our 100 % abilities.Better yet do a Skyball from 7am thru till 1 am i still dont know how many games we did then and the last few I was clueless due to exhaustion. If a referee staff is given proper water rest and food they will preform 100 times better and they might even come back the next event so you can start forming crews who work together.Thats what makes the NXL refs so strong its the same guys who have worked as a team so long it becomes much easier ref and keep games well in hand.
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Old 06-12-2008, 06:54 PM #25
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Replaying games is not a viable solution. Do they just keep replaying until it is dark? Or until no one complains? Or whichever comes first. Reffing things better the first time is your only hope.
Ofcourse not ALL games need replayed, nor deserve it. The point is not to replay until it gets dark or no one complains. The point of a replay is to provide another opportunity for an accurately judged game. There are plenty of instances, I'm sure, where teams have experienced horrid calls or horrid no-calls that have dictated the action in a game. Which takes me back to my on-field ultimate ref idea, whom has the authority to decide whether or not a call was incorrect AND if it indeed changed the course of a game.

I'm sorry but teams pay thousands of dollars to participate in sanctioned events. It's only right that they get the utmost efficient and accurate judging possible. I understand your arguments about the ammentites provided to refs, but ultimately that has nothing to do with players/teams competing. And there are plenty of referees who ARE able to do their job without controversy working in those same conditions. So again, this is not a general complaint against ALL refs. This system is purely to promote the most efficient and fair resolution of disputes. It doesn't necessarily mean that now every team will get a replay when they're unhappy. But with hope that teams truely victim to poor judging may have another shot.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:07 PM #26
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Let me try again YOU DO NOT REPLAY GAMES at any level of any sport.If you cannot handle this i suggest checkers or backgammon.Take a look around at sports that tie up MILLIONS of dollars in thier team and thru the fault of a bad call they are sent home for the season.I have listened to your arguments time and time again you are not the first to make these suggestions and will not be the last but the bottom line is LIFE IS NOT FAIR AND THERE ARE NO DO-OVERS.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:13 PM #27
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Warning: get some popcorn, its a long one.

Bad calls are a fact of sports. There is no sport that does not have bad calls at the pro level. Yes, it can be minimized with instant replays and league overrulings and what not, but in paintball where the camera does NOT see everything, the instant replay is an unaffordable luxury.

It infuriates me to hear a player claim bias. In my experience, I have seen bad calls, questionable calls, missed calls, and downright incorrect calls, but I have never seen nor heard rumors of a biased call EXCEPT from players. And belive me, refs discuss mistakes in detail amongst each other. A whole slew of "bias" could be explained by the simple fact that it takes two people to cover a player, and that the second ref might be on the opposite side of the field. A lot of the rest of "biased" calls are simply "questionable," but remember since refs see more than the player, it is more likely that their dissection of the events and their order is correct versus what the player saw.

Soccer lady, at the end of the day, we players and refs alike are all tired be it equal or not and that does affect decisions. Believe it. Fatigue and hunger does not magically go away just because you are given a paycheck at the end of a long weekend. Precision is ideal, but our job as refs is not to be that. Our job is to enforce the rules fairly and consistantly.

This simple PROVEN facts are:
-more than one ref making a call just creates chaos on the field
-an on field ultimate ref is a waste of a body and is cost prohibitive

Realize that even with 12 refs on the field many times there are only 2 eyes watching the act in question. An extra pair of eyes from above will not see everything AND can still be wrong. An improvement on the current system would target the weaknesses of the original call on the field. John and Shell are absolutely right- food, water, fatigue, inexperience, and an ability to make a prompt (not precise) call are points that can be improved upon in any ref.

What you can do:
Ref turnover in the NPPL is extremely high and a lot of this is due to lack of respect from players and lack of support from the league. Sometimes the rookie refs equal or outnumber the vetern refs. As a player, you can treat every refs with respect even if they made a mistake because perhaps they will learn from that mistake and come back the next event that much smarter. If you have an arguement, be civil and understand that not a whole lot can be done to balance the scales if a mistake was made except to learn and try to prevent it from happening again in the future. Those fast, precise calls that all players want are all learned from situations that have happened in the past.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:15 PM #28
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Let me try again YOU DO NOT REPLAY GAMES at any level of any sport.If you cannot handle this i suggest checkers or backgammon.Take a look around at sports that tie up MILLIONS of dollars in thier team and thru the fault of a bad call they are sent home for the season.I have listened to your arguments time and time again you are not the first to make these suggestions and will not be the last but the bottom line is LIFE IS NOT FAIR AND THERE ARE NO DO-OVERS.
You're probably one of those guys that people don't like. You're obvioiusly frustrated, maybe your parents didn't love you enough when you were younger, but I didn't make this thread to discuss how fair life is or the difference and/or similarities between our sport and those that "tie up Millions."

So thanks for your comments, but you haven't made any constructive criticism
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:22 PM #29
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It's only right that they get the utmost efficient and accurate judging possible.
Players do deserve the most FAIR and most CONSISTANT judging possible.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:24 PM #30
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Nice try grasshopper but if youll ask around i happen to be one of the most respected referees on the planet.Ask any NXL player ive have had the pleasure to referee or any European player youll get the same answer. All I can see is a rookie player who feels that everytime a mistake happens to his team he is entitled to a replay.Sorry but the way it is mistakes happen you live with it and move on.For the referee who makes the mistake he trys not to make the same mistake twice and hope for only a mininum of mistakes on his watch.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:29 PM #31
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Warning: get some popcorn, its a long one.

Bad calls are a fact of sports. There is no sport that does not have bad calls at the pro level. Yes, it can be minimized with instant replays and league overrulings and what not, but in paintball where the camera does NOT see everything, the instant replay is an unaffordable luxury.

It infuriates me to hear a player claim bias. In my experience, I have seen bad calls, questionable calls, missed calls, and downright incorrect calls, but I have never seen nor heard rumors of a biased call EXCEPT from players. And belive me, refs discuss mistakes in detail amongst each other. A whole slew of "bias" could be explained by the simple fact that it takes two people to cover a player, and that the second ref might be on the opposite side of the field. A lot of the rest of "biased" calls are simply "questionable," but remember since refs see more than the player, it is more likely that their dissection of the events and their order is correct versus what the player saw.

Soccer lady, at the end of the day, we players and refs alike are all tired be it equal or not and that does affect decisions. Believe it. Fatigue and hunger does not magically go away just because you are given a paycheck at the end of a long weekend. Precision is ideal, but our job as refs is not to be that. Our job is to enforce the rules fairly and consistantly.

This simple PROVEN facts are:
-more than one ref making a call just creates chaos on the field
-an on field ultimate ref is a waste of a body and is cost prohibitive

Realize that even with 12 refs on the field many times there are only 2 eyes watching the act in question. An extra pair of eyes from above will not see everything AND can still be wrong. An improvement on the current system would target the weaknesses of the original call on the field. John and Shell are absolutely right- food, water, fatigue, inexperience, and an ability to make a prompt (not precise) call are points that can be improved upon in any ref.

What you can do:
Ref turnover in the NPPL is extremely high and a lot of this is due to lack of respect from players and lack of support from the league. Sometimes the rookie refs equal or outnumber the vetern refs. As a player, you can treat every refs with respect even if they made a mistake because perhaps they will learn from that mistake and come back the next event that much smarter. If you have an arguement, be civil and understand that not a whole lot can be done to balance the scales if a mistake was made except to learn and try to prevent it from happening again in the future. Those fast, precise calls that all players want are all learned from situations that have happened in the past.
Understood. And again I'm not trying to ref bash here. I have very rarely experienced controversy with reffing. However, we all know there are situations in which even experienced, veteran refs mess up. It's just a fact, human nature, we are not machines.

Why is it that every one is so reluctant to accept a system (Not necessarily the one I've discussed) to give players/teams/referees a chance to re-evaluate a game. Whether it actually proves more efficient can only be speculated at this point but from a Player stand point Having an Ultimate ref on the field ABSOLUTELY ensures that he not only watches your game (yea maybe he misses the specific call in question), but provides that additional peace of mind. I can't tell you how frustrating it is trying to explain to an Ultimate--who doesn't watch any games and just hangs around until he's called on--a situation in which you think you were judged unfairly.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:35 PM #32
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Time is the problem.If you are doing a major event you do not have time to do replays.It would be nice to make everything perfect but you just dont have the time.Remeber this the truth has 3 versions yours,thiers,and what really happened.Believe me I know your pain as a player but to waste the resources for what you want is just not fiesable ( ok i cant speel ).
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:37 PM #33
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Nice try grasshopper but if youll ask around i happen to be one of the most respected referees on the planet.Ask any NXL player ive have had the pleasure to referee or any European player youll get the same answer. All I can see is a rookie player who feels that everytime a mistake happens to his team he is entitled to a replay.Sorry but the way it is mistakes happen you live with it and move on.For the referee who makes the mistake he trys not to make the same mistake twice and hope for only a mininum of mistakes on his watch.
I don't know you, so for now you're just a man sitting at a computer, as am I. And you are half correct about my feelings of entitlement to replays. Ofcourse a replay shouldn't be mandated for EVERY mistake. If you read the whole thread you'd have a better understanding.

Teams pay the league. No one pays us to play. If a ref screws up a call, he still gets paid at the end of the day. I have never heard of a ref complain about that.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:40 PM #34
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Time is the problem.If you are doing a major event you do not have time to do replays.It would be nice to make everything perfect but you just dont have the time.Remeber this the truth has 3 versions yours,thiers,and what really happened.Believe me I know your pain as a player but to waste the resources for what you want is just not fiesable ( ok i cant speel ).
Is time really a problem? If at the next event you ref, a team feels they got a bad call and you say "ok we'll have a replay at the end of the day." Do you think they'd say "no thanks, we've got places to be" or "well it's getting kind of late..." Come on. Who's worried about time at a tournament with so much at stake.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:41 PM #35
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Understood. And again I'm not trying to ref bash here. I have very rarely experienced controversy with reffing. However, we all know there are situations in which even experienced, veteran refs mess up. It's just a fact, human nature, we are not machines.

Why is it that every one is so reluctant to accept a system (Not necessarily the one I've discussed) to give players/teams/referees a chance to re-evaluate a game. Whether it actually proves more efficient can only be speculated at this point but from a Player stand point Having an Ultimate ref on the field ABSOLUTELY ensures that he not only watches your game (yea maybe he misses the specific call in question), but provides that additional peace of mind. I can't tell you how frustrating it is trying to explain to an Ultimate--who doesn't watch any games and just hangs around until he's called on--a situation in which you think you were judged unfairly.
Were not reluctant to accept a system, but most of these guys here have been part of MANY different systems and are speaking from experiance.

Having the extra ultimate is honestly about as useful as having a chrono assistant. And you also should remember that a lot of us refs (myself excluded) are players and have dealt with the same issues you have had.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:45 PM #36
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Were not reluctant to accept a system, but most of these guys here have been part of MANY different systems and are speaking from experiance.

Having the extra ultimate is honestly about as useful as having a chrono assistant. And you also should remember that a lot of us refs (myself excluded) are players and have dealt with the same issues you have had.
You have all done a great job of telling me how much you disapprove of this idea. But no one has offered one of their own. You've said they need water, food, better training. All of those things can help a ref perform better, BUT IT DOES NOT STOP BAD CALLS. They will always happen, no matter how you pamper the officials.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:47 PM #37
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Understood. And again I'm not trying to ref bash here. I have very rarely experienced controversy with reffing. However, we all know there are situations in which even experienced, veteran refs mess up. It's just a fact, human nature, we are not machines.

Why is it that every one is so reluctant to accept a system (Not necessarily the one I've discussed) to give players/teams/referees a chance to re-evaluate a game. Whether it actually proves more efficient can only be speculated at this point but from a Player stand point Having an Ultimate ref on the field ABSOLUTELY ensures that he not only watches your game (yea maybe he misses the specific call in question), but provides that additional peace of mind. I can't tell you how frustrating it is trying to explain to an Ultimate--who doesn't watch any games and just hangs around until he's called on--a situation in which you think you were judged unfairly.
I appreciate your understanding. It is not that we are reluctant to accept a new system, it is that what you are suggesting has already been tried in the past and has proven itself to be ineffective. As I understand it, the role of the ultimate is to act in cases where the rules were not enforced correctly or if there is a grey area that was not covered. He is not supposed to decide if games are reffed unfairly. That should be the head ref's job, since he is there the whole day and knows the behavior of the refs on the field. Anyways, I doubt the league would never support/pay for an under utilized body in the form of a "silent judge." Ask them. I encourage you to bring your suggestion to their table.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:50 PM #38
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You have all done a great job of telling me how much you disapprove of this idea. But no one has offered one of their own. You've said they need water, food, better training. All of those things can help a ref perform better, BUT IT DOES NOT STOP BAD CALLS. They will always happen, no matter how you pamper the officials.
The improvement of the performance of the original ref IS what we are offering. But, that's exactly right. Bad calls cannot be stopped. I'm glad we understand each other.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:55 PM #39
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You have all done a great job of telling me how much you disapprove of this idea. But no one has offered one of their own. You've said they need water, food, better training. All of those things can help a ref perform better, BUT IT DOES NOT STOP BAD CALLS. They will always happen, no matter how you pamper the officials.
Your right, nothing will stop bad calls from happening eventually. As for a suggestion...I really don't know, IMO until the sport itself evolves more the evolution of reffing really cant go much further outside of training and full time refs.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:58 PM #40
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Why is it that every one is so reluctant to accept a system (Not necessarily the one I've discussed) to give players/teams/referees a chance to re-evaluate a game. Whether it actually proves more efficient can only be speculated at this point but from a Player stand point Having an Ultimate ref on the field ABSOLUTELY ensures that he not only watches your game (yea maybe he misses the specific call in question), but provides that additional peace of mind. I can't tell you how frustrating it is trying to explain to an Ultimate--who doesn't watch any games and just hangs around until he's called on--a situation in which you think you were judged unfairly.
No one is reluctant, but having an on field ultimate is not, in my opinion, the answer to the problem of clarifying questions, arguments or protests. Like you mentioned, having the ultimate on field could very well result in him missing the call in question.

What is the difference in discussing a call with someone who is on the field and missed the call or a person who was no where near the field when the issue took place?

At this point, I don't feel there is a perfect or near perfect reffing "system" that you are mentioning. Reffing is getting much better, like Boogie mentioned. There are conditions that will help reffing get to the near perfect status. Here are the parts to me that contribute to a more accurate system:

* Consistent ref "teams" who work together all season as much as possible. Similar to a playing team, refs work better when they work with the same guys on a regular basis.
* Proper ref support from the leagues. This includes, but is not limited to, adequate room and board at an event, adequate numbers of refs per field, adequate ref supplies (paper towels, fruit, nutritious snacks, water, electrolyte replacing fluids, etc.) and support from the league officials when the above are not provided. If this support is provided, there won't be a revolving door with refs. Consistent, happy refs will keep coming back to each event.
* Better and continuted training, for new and veteran refs. From the ground up, refs should be supported with training. Ref training classes are a great start. You have to start at the bottom to work up, but the journey to become a better ref needs support. This could be in the form of e-mails from the league between events to go over suggestions, changes, compliments, concerns, etc. Additionally, training should continue to take place during events without hindering the quality of reffing during games. This could be in the form of mentoring, off or on field evaluations, etc.
* Proper support from the players. Yes, from the players. The majority of players are very respectful to the refs. But there is an attitude in paintball from a growing percentage of players that the refs can and should be taken advantage of. I haven't seen it in any other "sport" where players "practice" persuading or influencing refs to their advantage. Players need to play their game and leave the reffing to the refs.

Will all these things help end "bad" calls. Not completely, but remember, a bad call is just that. There are three sides to every call. Your side, the other team's side and the ref's side. It becomes the ref's job to balance this act and make the proper call based on the details provided. Wrong calls happen, bad calls happen, mistakes happen. Even in the NHL, NBA, and NFL. It happens to be part of the game(s).

Does this answer all the issues? No. This is also only my thoughts on reffing. I played tournament paintball from 99-2003 and have been reffing the NPPL since 2006, so I have seen both sides and appreciate both sides. My biggest concern with the advancement of reffing is the support from the leagues. In most cases, reffing is an after thought and not well organized or planned. I honestly feel that this should be a main priority. Attention to detail is lacking big time right now. Ok, I have typed enough...discuss as you see fit.
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Old 06-12-2008, 08:10 PM #41
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Time is a problem when you try to run the replay in the dark/dusk.After 26 years in the sport on both sides i think im on sure footing here.Also the team that wins will 99.9% of the time will not want a replay anyways.
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Old 06-12-2008, 08:13 PM #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOGPRO View Post
Time is a problem when you try to run the replay in the dark/dusk.After 26 years in the sport on both sides i think im on sure footing here
Good lord, that makes you 60 years old or something like that!
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