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Old 05-19-2008, 10:23 AM #1
Jubes
 
 
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WWA mini pump kit mod

Quote:
Take it apart and look how it gets air to the chamber/body. Pay close attention to the alignment of the holes and you will understand. # holes need to be drilled larger to make it work properly.
I found only one small vertical hole in the banjo bolt to allow air into the valve chamber. If that hole didn't line up perfectly, air needed to flow over and around the bolt threads and I knew that couldn't be efficient. I compared the "semi" banjo bolt and it had 3 larger vertical holes as well as a grooved area if the holes didn't line up with the vertical asa. I modded the WWA banjo bolt by increasing the hole size to 5/32, also drilled it completely through instead of it only being on half the bolt, AND discovering that it needed to be closer to the block to actually line up with the asa, I placed a 3rd and 4th hole offset 1/16th closer. I also drilled out the asa to 5/32. That was the size of the horizontal hole in the WWA banjo bolt. While there, I added a hole near the front of the pump slide on the banjo bolt to accomodate a bar to tighten the unit. It was all reassembled and seems to work fine now. So it doesn't appear to be a spring issue after all. Thanks, hvacman!

Original small hole in vertical asa;


Redrilled to 5/32;


Original WWA banjo bolt with one small vertical hole halfway through;



Redrilled to 5/32 all the way through and threads milled to a groove;


1/16 offset hole all the way through added;


Now has 4 air holes and groove rather than 1 and threaded. Notice the offset to align to vertical asa;


Extra hole in front to assist in tightening;


Completed marker;
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Old 05-19-2008, 07:05 PM #2
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Told ya

After I drilled out mine like that, I went from 230 fps to 370 fps without touching any springs or reg pressure.

Very poor design on that kit.
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Old 05-19-2008, 07:15 PM #3
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Old 05-19-2008, 07:26 PM #4
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Nice, I have the same kit but haven't been able to try it out yet since it's been a side project of mine for some time. I'll have to try that.
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Old 05-19-2008, 09:29 PM #5
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what about efficiency?
and im curious how much that weakens the rod/banjo.
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:48 AM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hvacman250 View Post
Told ya

After I drilled out mine like that, I went from 230 fps to 370 fps without touching any springs or reg pressure.

Very poor design on that kit.
I was able to eliminate venting and reduce my main spring from a medium to a light. The only way I could get velocity without venting before was with heavy main and valve, but it kicked like a mule and sounded like a cannon. Now it's soft and as quiet as any sniper I've ever heard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TargetAZ View Post
what about efficiency?
and im curious how much that weakens the rod/banjo.
Can't tell you yet as I've only put a hopper through it. It's not a big concern for me as it's a pump and I use a 45/45 on it.

Although it's an aluminum bolt and guide rod, once it's seated, there really shouldn't be any major sideways pressure in the drilled area so I can't imagine weakness being an issue.
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Old 03-13-2009, 04:18 PM #7
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with a hand held drill i increased the size of the holes in the vert ASA and the guide rod to 5/32" (and made it go all the way through). i didn't bother with adding the 3rd / 4th hole. i was able to use a dremel to remove the threading in the same area that Jubes did. it doesn't look as neat and clean, but it gets the job done and isn't visible when assembled.

i also went a step further and increased the horizontal hole in the guide rod from 5/32" to 1/4". i may have gone larger, but 1/4" is the largest bit i have at this time. the valve chamber in mini cockers is smaller than normal cockers, and the threads of the WWA guide rod go pretty far into the mini-cocker's valve chamber, making it even smaller. drilling out the horizontal hole increases the volume of air that's available in the valve chamber before each shot. i thought about drilling further into the guide rod as well, but wouldn't be able to go past the hole that is used to tighten the guide rod to the body.

i don't have a chrono, but i can already tell that it made a Huge difference. before doing this, i couldn't get my Superbolt Pump to shoot faster than 260ish, now its probably shooting well over 300. we'll see the next time i'm at the field.

thanks for the tip, this worked really well

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Old 03-13-2009, 04:29 PM #8
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Glad it helped. That Super Bolt makes a great pump!
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Old 03-13-2009, 04:47 PM #9
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wow, that was really lazy of WWA to make it the way he did. good fix though, nice work.
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Old 03-13-2009, 05:32 PM #10
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I got a Sanchez kit and it has 4 holes in it, and uses a stock front block, so it was not an issue.

I was looking at WWA and the sanchez kit's bolt is better, I like the WWA pump handle though better.
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Old 03-14-2009, 04:28 AM #11
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Yeah here is another pic so you can see how small the stock transfer hole is (at least how tiny it is on mine).



Not only is it tiny, but it's on the threaded section of the rod and there is no guarantee that it will be facing down and the major diamter of teh threads is about the same size as the hole it's in so air won't be able to freely flow around that part of the rod to the hole.

No wonder my gun can't shoot over 200 fps.

As soon as I get a bit of free time in the machine shop this will see a bit of action on the lathe and the mill. If that allen tightening hole wasn't where it is I would consider drilling the whole rod out. For now I will just drill out the threaded end. If that all goes well I am going fab a new rod.

Here is a quick CAD model I made. I will make it on the lathe and mill and the larger diameter section will be press fit or shrink fit on (I need to add teh o-ring groove in it still). I actually made this before I found this thread. I'm glad I did find this thread and confirmed that I'm not crazy for thinking the rod is poorly designed. Thanks Jubes for posting the mod.

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Old 03-14-2009, 08:56 AM #12
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Move your flats for tighing down next to the stop collar. That way if it comes loose while the pump is installed you can tighten w/o removal.
Also remember the diameter of the WWA was to probally produce more shots with 12 gram.

My bolt/air tube is receased where you show your holes, good idea, that way if you don't line up 100% it still flows air.

As for the collar, I'd just turn the tubes on the lathe 100% and not press on anything.
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Old 03-14-2009, 09:07 AM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andymi86 View Post
Yeah here is another pic so you can see how small the stock transfer hole is (at least how tiny it is on mine).



Not only is it tiny, but it's on the threaded section of the rod and there is no guarantee that it will be facing down and the major diamter of teh threads is about the same size as the hole it's in so air won't be able to freely flow around that part of the rod to the hole.
The hole is un-anno'd so it would appear he totally forgot about it until the last minute!
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Old 03-14-2009, 09:46 AM #14
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Think about it this way, fellas. There are at least two reasons why he might not have thought about it:

First, his fullbody kits had the same hole, and had no issues. Producing the mini kit without testing it is fairly possible since Mini body guns were pretty hard to find at a reasonable price in 2005 (when he designed and built them).

Second, if you consider co2 use, the kit actually acts as a devolumizer, and that hole doesn't hurt a thing. In the case of stock class use alone, the stock hole is very effective. It would also be much harder to manufacture a devolumizing kit for the kit had it been drilled for air use.

So, whether it was intentional or not, we really have no idea. I do want to lean towards "Yes", since the only pictures he's produced of any of his kits on a gun were that JCM Halfblock from years ago, made from a Superbolt. As I recall, JoshGrr (JCM's one and only) reported that gun getting very high marks in the efficiency department, despite being a 2k (mini) valve chamber, without modification to the springs.

Also, for redesigning this kit, the main guide rod stays in place very well by just going hand-tight, believe it or not. I almost wish he hadn't drilled that hole in the rod, because then I could drill a really deep volumizer for my VLM's kit. Oh well, I'll probably do it to the Jcurt kit I have coming.
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Old 03-14-2009, 02:27 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintballRepUSA View Post
Move your flats for tighing down next to the stop collar. That way if it comes loose while the pump is installed you can tighten w/o removal.
Also remember the diameter of the WWA was to probally produce more shots with 12 gram.

My bolt/air tube is receased where you show your holes, good idea, that way if you don't line up 100% it still flows air.

As for the collar, I'd just turn the tubes on the lathe 100% and not press on anything.
Good call on moving the flats, I will consider that. I had put them on the end so I could make the hole through the center larger but not as deep. I will see if I can move them and still make the hole easy to drill.

I would love to do it all from one piece on a lathe, but I don't think making the groove for the o-ring on the rod is possible without a very small probably specially designed tool. There isn't anyway to get a boring bar in there because of threads. I'm not positive, but I think the that piece is press fit on on the stock rod. If there is a tool that will do that, I don't think I have access to it.

Here is a picture of the groove.

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Old 03-14-2009, 06:31 PM #16
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nice mod!
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Old 03-14-2009, 08:33 PM #17
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So for those pioneers who have done this do you think its most important to drill the larger holes or to drill the holes and remove the threading? Also do you think it is necessary to drill the vert asa part larger or do you think the benefits would be achieved from simply enlarging the banjo hole size and/or drilling an additional hole?
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Old 03-14-2009, 09:49 PM #18
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well if anybody gets in contact with him and he wants to re-measure things, i'm in Chico and so is he, and i have a factory 1997 minicocker.

i just realized alot of companies are here. WWA is here in chico, CCM is just a short drive north of me, and then St!ffi is barely north of CCM., i dunno where his shop is at, but Bob Long is always at the feild here and he's local too.

got to play with the CCM prototype today

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Old 03-14-2009, 10:50 PM #19
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On the O-Ring do not recess it, the oring goes against the flat usually so it seals to the body and the bolt.

Like the o-riginal unit it just sits there. I mean if you want to add the step, have fun, if it works cool.

You should be able to mill that on the lathe using a small 90 degree cutter, I forget the technical name of it but its small.
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:47 AM #20
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The rod I got from WWA has a groove there that holds the o-ring. Maybe not all of them do?

I got done modding it today. Drilled a 5/32 hole in the VA and 4 on the rod. I also drilled the rod out to 5/8. Just by blowing through it I can tell it's much better flowing now. Pics tomorrow.

I know what you mean for the tool, but I've done some looking around and I havn't found anything. If you find one somewhere let me know. I talked to our shop master today he said it would be pretty easy to make one if I needed to.

Edit:

I think I found some stuff here that looks about right, we just don't have any groove cutting tools like that in our shop.

http://www.internaltool.com/products/#lathe

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Old 03-15-2009, 02:10 AM #21
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O-Ring Grooving Tools :: Series 27 looks promising.

Also remember large diameter lowers pressure, raises volume.... So don't go over kill or you start having to run higher pressure to get same volume etc etc. you maybe need to turn a few with different sizes until you get that fine line of efficency.

In the old days we would swap power tubes (dating myself now) depending on weather conditions, elevation etc. this ofcourse was all with CO2. I am sure under some hydrodynamic law etc etc even with HPA there has to be a sweet spot. Big inlets, and then adjust flow via bore. You want the smallest bore that allows the marker to function to the lowest psi in your tank. to tune for efficency.

I am pretty sure WWA tuned his for 12g play ala CO2. Which as we all know is a totally different beast to tune for, though by volume it is more efficent, just less consitant.

So that fat bore might suck a 12g dry way fast if you plan on using it or say a 3.5oz?
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Last edited by PaintballRepUSA : 03-15-2009 at 02:17 AM.
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