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Old 05-17-2008, 12:11 PM #22
raehl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danbob1088 View Post
QFT.

NPPL never had it listed. It was rather convenient for PbN to realize that all of a sudden...
Nothing convenient about it really. I know NCPA didn't work out our arrangement with PbNation with regard to our forum until last summer, which just puts it in the same time frame.

Regardless, we have our league on the main page, and we trade out links for it. I think this is MORE than fair to us and PbNation. But it is most certainly NOT fair if we have to do it and other leagues get a free pass.

I think you guys are being a little bit childish expecting NPPL to get a free ride just because they're NPPL. That would be about as ridiculous as NPPL giving Dynasty free entry fees just because they're Dynasty. Or Craig posting a bunch of advertising for the local restaurant at his field for nothing in return - even if its the closest or most popular restaurant.

It's called CROSS promotion for a reason.

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Old 05-17-2008, 01:22 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raehl View Post
Nothing convenient about it really. I know NCPA didn't work out our arrangement with PbNation with regard to our forum until last summer, which just puts it in the same time frame.

Regardless, we have our league on the main page, and we trade out links for it. I think this is MORE than fair to us and PbNation. But it is most certainly NOT fair if we have to do it and other leagues get a free pass.

I think you guys are being a little bit childish expecting NPPL to get a free ride just because they're NPPL. That would be about as ridiculous as NPPL giving Dynasty free entry fees just because they're Dynasty. Or Craig posting a bunch of advertising for the local restaurant at his field for nothing in return - even if its the closest or most popular restaurant.

It's called CROSS promotion for a reason.

- Chris
Chris,

I don't think the NPPL should get a free ride at all - hell, I think its better that they aren't on the front page if there is no cross promotion.

My point is just that it was never a public, i.e. actioned-on, issue until the media problem at Boston. Then, all of a sudden, it was an issue. Regardless of the truth of the reason it was taken off (which most of us do not know for sure), perception can be reality. It was taken off right after the Boston incident, leaving a lot of people wondering about whether the true reason is different than the stated reason.
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:38 PM #24
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Originally Posted by raehl View Post
Nothing convenient about it really. I know NCPA didn't work out our arrangement with PbNation with regard to our forum until last summer, which just puts it in the same time frame.

Regardless, we have our league on the main page, and we trade out links for it. I think this is MORE than fair to us and PbNation. But it is most certainly NOT fair if we have to do it and other leagues get a free pass.

I think you guys are being a little bit childish expecting NPPL to get a free ride just because they're NPPL. That would be about as ridiculous as NPPL giving Dynasty free entry fees just because they're Dynasty. Or Craig posting a bunch of advertising for the local restaurant at his field for nothing in return - even if its the closest or most popular restaurant.

It's called CROSS promotion for a reason.

- Chris
True, but itís that same mindset of total corporatism on PbNís part that is whatís helping to hinder the sport. Maybe the NPPL should trade off with PbNation on ad sources and market coverage, IĎm not saying they necessarily should or shouldn't, but that doesnít excuse the fact that PbN is operating as a political and corporate entity, instead of itís assumed mission of offering an open sourced information center for players and leagues. The guys operating PbN can do whatever they like, but it speaks volumes as to their operating style(s) when the NPPL is not only not featured on the front page, but is literary coming off a black out. It took nearly a year for this situation to blow over! Thatís way too long! I could understand that PbN must stick with their sponsors, but as a news and publication entity, which they are (like it or not), PbNation needed to step up to the plate far sooner than they did. There is no effort in doing nothing, but there is far greater energy put forth to make an outright ban.

Free ride? Maybe not, I understand it takes money to run things and ďcross promotionsĒ help to fuel the siteís estate, but to pick a fight with one of the most successful leagues in history for the sake of God knows what... It seemed like pride got in the way of reason in order to protect PbN stock, but this doesnít excuse the fact whatsoever. As a publication source, rather, PbNation should be relying solely on advertising, and not political extortion. There is a difference between allowing information and totally blacking it out. Itís not as if PbNation is creating this information either, rather, they are only working as a portal through interactions by itís members. If anything moderation should be kept minimal in order for this type of network to survive, but thatís another theory in of itself. I think PbNation got off real easy, but itís that same lax rule set that led to a nasty little incident not too long ago, by paying members no less, and moderators. Itís obvious PbN should feel lucky to have any association with the media or advertisers whatsoever at this point. But itís not all that bad, it just seems like the website was far outweighed in itís argument against the league, and broke a few morals of itís own along the way. I mean common, itís the internetz.

To sum it up simply, PbNation was the billy club of the center court fiasco, which it had no reason to be involved with to begin with. This was an issue between the league and itís other media outlets, not PbN. The pre-emptive strike made by the website was not only unnecessary, but reprehensible, both when it happened and even now, as theyíve ďmade upĒ, and yet the NPPL has not received the same level of service from PbNation as it did before. Can anyone say ďgrudgeĒ?

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Old 05-17-2008, 01:40 PM #25
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And I'm not saying they were not taken off because of the Boston issue - I don't know why they were taken off. But this thread isn't about why they were taken off, it's about why they are not added back - and if some of us are going to trade consideration for having a forum on the main page, then everyone should.

It's great that NPPL isn't in the swear filter anymore, but that's an entirely separate issue from being listed on the main page.

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Old 05-17-2008, 01:57 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAL32 View Post
When you think of PBNation you think of a web site for information.
If they are choosing what information is listed or how it is listed then in my mind they lose credibility

Lose credibility? Are you serious?

PBN is THE name in paintball discussion boards. There is no one else worth mentioning.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:03 PM #27
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what pbnation is just like a buisness, if NPPL doesnt list pbnation just as a partner why should pbnation post partners with NPPL if they dont do the same.
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:47 PM #28
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I remember when this was just a forum covering all forms of paintball equally...no bs about it.
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Old 05-17-2008, 03:34 PM #29
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Originally Posted by P8NTBALL3R4LIFE View Post
what pbnation is just like a buisness, if NPPL doesnt list pbnation just as a partner why should pbnation post partners with NPPL if they dont do the same.
yeah well sadly thats the way it turned into.
pbn used to be a website for everybody and now its about how much money they can make.
like the guy earlier said, pbn used to be about advancing the sport as a whole.

pbn claims it has friends with MWAG and others
the owner of pbn doesnt even play paintball more than like 1 time a year.
hell the ONLY mod that other mods know that play on some type of basis is John. and go figure, John is undoubtedly the fairest mod on here.

so, again, pbn is just using the fact they know that nobody here is gonna go anywhere cuz theres no where else to go and just do whatever the **** they want.
and the fact that they can single handedly hurt one league by removing its forum
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Old 05-17-2008, 04:46 PM #30
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You guys are ridiculous.

I also remember when PbNation was small, then could barely operate because the traffic was too massive for the server to support. You'll note that now the site is up pretty much all the time and is fast, despite the MASSIVE number of people using it now, right?

How do you think that happened? Could it POSSIBLY be because someone figured out how to get the site to actually support itself? Someone might have figured out that in order for PbNation to continue to exist, someone might also have to have the money to pay for the servers and staff PbNation needs to operate? Someone might have realized that giving free promotion to everyone does not pay the power bill? I suppose PbNation could just go around and promote every paintball company that wanted it. As long as you guys are happy with PbNation being a site with very slow page loads that crashes all the time.

I also remember back when NPPL was owned by the teams who played. Now NPPL is owned by an investment capital firm. I actually think that's a good change - the league is a business and needs to be run as such. But Pacific Paintball is a company trying to make money. It is simply assanine to be mad at PbNation for wanting to make money because you expect them to help Pacific Paintball make money for free!


And while we're all promoting the sport, I want every website to link to the NCPA. We're the only actual, legitimate non-profit league in paintball. The NCPA is the ONLY league that someone is not making money off of (we don't even have anyone on salary). We're the only league that's been televised four years in a row, and we're the only league that doesn't pay the network for our air time. So if we're all promoting the sport, how about everyone promote the only non-profit league, with teams who are NOT paid to play? I mean, everyone should just be promoting the sport, without any compensation, right? So I hope all of you who expect PbNation to give free promotion to another business whose owners are out to make money to start promoting the NCPA every chance you get. You can all start by putting the NCPA in your signatures, and if any of you have websites, you can put up the NCPA logo and link to our website, and if you have a field or store, you can pay to have NCPA banners made up and hang those at your business too. And of course, you should run NCPA events for free.


Fortunately, I realize that's not how the real world works. When one business trying to make money wants another business to promote them, they pay for it. Period. There is plenty of room for everyone to promote the sport AND make money for their effort. And we should all be helping each other promote the sport. But the key part of that is help each other - not expect some people to help other people but not get any help in return.


- Chris
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Old 05-17-2008, 05:52 PM #31
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LOL, Chris finally came to terms.
No worries looks like PBNation and NPPL will be back on track after this event.

Its all good.

Hey Chris I would like to have you on our web site.
Floridapaintballing.com
Hit it and send us the graphics and we will put you on. And no you do not have to have us on yours, LOL.
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Old 05-17-2008, 05:53 PM #32
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immature *****es....... enough said
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:29 PM #33
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Ok you guys are so far off...

Quote:
bn used to be a website for everybody and now its about how much money they can make.
like the guy earlier said, pbn used to be about advancing the sport as a whole.
PBN Stood up for us in Boston, they didn't have to do a thing, but they did. I can only hope that you would of done the same if your friend was in the same predicament. Did you think their actions made them money by doing this? "Answer": NO. In fact it was a bad business move... so don't say they are about the money when clearly they are willing to help a friend in need with out a monetary reason.

I hope to god I have helped advance this sport with the videos that we have made. Trust me when I say this... If it was not for the unselfish support of PBN I would not be here now!!! So do not say that they are not about advancing the sport!

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pbn claims it has friends with MWAG
Not a claim, Its the Truth.

Can we get off their *** now? If you all want to ***** at some one, than ***** at me, not at PBN.

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Old 05-18-2008, 03:38 AM #34
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Originally Posted by MonkeyWithaGun View Post
PBN Stood up for us in Boston, they didn't have to do a thing, but they did. I can only hope that you would of done the same if your friend was in the same predicament. Did you think their actions made them money by doing this? "Answer": NO. In fact it was a bad business move... so don't say they are about the money when clearly they are willing to help a friend in need with out a monetary reason.
they stood up for movie companies by putting their site on a filter and removing their link from the front page?
oh yeah, teach em whose daddy, pbnation.

now, NPPL did a ****ty job informming, or lack of informing, the movie companies.
patrick, would you have not gone to boston just because you couldnt record at center court? and in return for the hassle you were given free media passes?
it didnt make a ****ing difference whether they told these companies cuz they were all coming out anyways. yes, it would have been nice to know, but in the end, you arent recording at center court, and telling you 2 seconds beforehand or 20 days beforehand isnt going to change that outcome.

and maybe FOX didnt demand they take center court until....the last minute
and honestly, FOX is going to outreach to more new viewers (and in turn, most participants) than any paintball movie company. so, they gave into FOX's demands.
and yes, that 100% shows that NPPL may not be the most loyal bastard out there, but they're out there to get people into paintball again and making paintball as a whole a better being.
i dont think NPPL just thought it would be funny to tell these companies for no reason.
shawn walker is an idiot, but not retarded.

again, pbnation got into the politics of paintball, friends or not it doesnt matter, and thats not correct for a website that should be neutral.
and the best part, is the GUSH of support for the PSP pbnation has had ever since they had a tissy with the NPPL

its all linked together, all you have to do is read between the damn lines.

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Old 05-18-2008, 09:19 AM #35
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You guys are ridiculous.

I also remember when PbNation was small, then could barely operate because the traffic was too massive for the server to support. You'll note that now the site is up pretty much all the time and is fast, despite the MASSIVE number of people using it now, right?

How do you think that happened? Could it POSSIBLY be because someone figured out how to get the site to actually support itself? Someone might have figured out that in order for PbNation to continue to exist, someone might also have to have the money to pay for the servers and staff PbNation needs to operate? Someone might have realized that giving free promotion to everyone does not pay the power bill? I suppose PbNation could just go around and promote every paintball company that wanted it. As long as you guys are happy with PbNation being a site with very slow page loads that crashes all the time.

I also remember back when NPPL was owned by the teams who played. Now NPPL is owned by an investment capital firm. I actually think that's a good change - the league is a business and needs to be run as such. But Pacific Paintball is a company trying to make money. It is simply assanine to be mad at PbNation for wanting to make money because you expect them to help Pacific Paintball make money for free!


And while we're all promoting the sport, I want every website to link to the NCPA. We're the only actual, legitimate non-profit league in paintball. The NCPA is the ONLY league that someone is not making money off of (we don't even have anyone on salary). We're the only league that's been televised four years in a row, and we're the only league that doesn't pay the network for our air time. So if we're all promoting the sport, how about everyone promote the only non-profit league, with teams who are NOT paid to play? I mean, everyone should just be promoting the sport, without any compensation, right? So I hope all of you who expect PbNation to give free promotion to another business whose owners are out to make money to start promoting the NCPA every chance you get. You can all start by putting the NCPA in your signatures, and if any of you have websites, you can put up the NCPA logo and link to our website, and if you have a field or store, you can pay to have NCPA banners made up and hang those at your business too. And of course, you should run NCPA events for free.


Fortunately, I realize that's not how the real world works. When one business trying to make money wants another business to promote them, they pay for it. Period. There is plenty of room for everyone to promote the sport AND make money for their effort. And we should all be helping each other promote the sport. But the key part of that is help each other - not expect some people to help other people but not get any help in return.


- Chris
You may be wrong Chris. There's plenty of people taking hits in the industry just to spread the word. Why, you yourself are working for a non-profit league, so how can you say that's how the real world works?

I agree with your points, but it's the principal of the matter whereas PbNation tried elevating it's real worth by abusing it's power on used-created and modified information, and in turn, the members themselves. There were plenty of people wanting to talk about the NPPL events last year and hear about them as well. By blacking this league out even in the slightest, PbNation not only shut out the league, but the people themselves that make up their content. Net neutrality went right out the window. There is only so much slack one can allow a website in terms of moderation, as it is only existent on first hand knowledge and experiences, and it's been very clear lately that this hasn't been an isolated issue. Really, the NPPL//PBN debacle is just one of many in this line of reasoning on PbN's part. To defend it even based on the website's "private practice" agreement terms would be an irresponsible endeavor indeed as it does not envelope the full scope of the website's authority in real world circumstances, or even a magnified one. Any material work created by non-corporate means here, on this website, is minimal at best. All the corp. is required to do is organize and moderate. Besides loading a pre-written system of code, they need to do very little to create and collect on this material.

PbNation is comprised by far more members of users than actual workers or material created by PbN itself, however, there is no sale base storefront here for general use, it is rather the users that submit, freely mind you, material and marketplace to the website. Skipping the rest of the explanation, and without disowning PbNation of it's actual advertising potential and other sources of revenue, it is the people of these boards that should have final says on something so massively large in relation to the topics they wish to speak of. What we have here is a privatized Democracy. I'm sure at some point the people in PbNation realized this, and they've obviously utilized the Nat' in this way, but it doesn't excuse them of failing to adhere to basic principals inherient with their own design and free discusion. Of course this is not to say that they can't or shouldn't try to be the big dawg, start their own league, name it something catchy and block everyone else off their site, but it shouldn't be done through hypocrisy, at least, Imo.

I'm guessing though, the NPPL's webcam grew by leaps and bounds, and made up for the "lost" advertising and talk surrounding their events. I'm just glad to see it's no longer banned and they've "made" up, but if there's any justice to this claim on PbN's part, they won't hold out for a payout, or at least, not without some sort of explanation as to why the situation has changed in regards to the "NPPL" spot on the front board. Even if it were money related, at least telling people about why the change is now permanent would ease the situation. People could deal with knowledge, it's being left in the dark that's the problem.

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Old 05-18-2008, 12:48 PM #36
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patrick, would you have not gone to boston just because you couldnt record at center court? and in return for the hassle you were given free media passes?
Yes, I would not of gone. In fact, I didn't film at all in Boston. You have been poorly informed on the facts of what happened in Boston and now you feel that it is your right to debate what you feel. So pardon me if I see glaring holes of inaccuracy in you rambling...

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Old 05-18-2008, 01:04 PM #37
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I guess this is just like in sports where the refs don't penalize the guy who swings first, but the guy who retaliates. MWAG got pushed around, PbNation pushed back, and you guys only want to blame PbNation.

Typical.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:05 PM #38
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You may be wrong Chris. There's plenty of people taking hits in the industry just to spread the word. Why, you yourself are working for a non-profit league, so how can you say that's how the real world works?
Easy. Because that's the way the real world works. The NCPA's mission is to promote college and high school paintball. We do not promote any other business unless doing so helps us promote college and high school paintball. That can take the form of funding, reduction in event costs, promotion of our league, etc, but we definitely do not promote anyone 'just because'. And on the flip side of that, we don't expect anyone to promote us unless we're providing something of equal value to them.

Not only is getting something necessary for most people to give something, giving something is necessary if you want to have long-lasting, beneficial relationships. Nobody wants to continue to support someone who refuses to return that favor.


MILLIONS of people visit PbNation every month. Don't tell Ed, but I think PbNation grossly undercharges for the exposure you get here. The fact that leagues can get a forum on the main page here for the low low price of just linking back to PbNation is a steal - and when a site like PbNation is promoting paintball leagues for essentially free, I don't see where you can say they're only concerned about their own wallets. There is no charge to have a league forum on the main page. It's not even close to a fair trade - the league gets to be on the main page of a site with millions of visits a month, and PbNation gets a link on a league page with what - ten or twenty thousand? It seems pretty silly to me to accuse PbNation of only being after money when the price for having a league forum on the main page is nothing more than common courtesy.


As for your assertion that someone just needs to come out and say why NPPL is not on the main page, since apparently you missed the rest of the thread, they are not there because they have not chosen (so far anyway, could happen tomorrow for all I know) to do the same cross-promotion with PbNation that all the other leagues on the main page have chosen to do.


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Old 05-18-2008, 04:30 PM #39
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What kind of jack *** comes on here and blasting PBN for being "All about making money" while defending the NPPL?
If PBN was one guy making money hand over fist would it matter? It's the best place to get laughed at for a leak in your gun on the planet.
Why did PSP have score updates all weekend for MAO? And Nicky doing a LIVE NPPL WEBCAST does not know scores from the other fields?
NPPL is weak sauce. NPPL thinks people driving by a paintball event will pull in. The one time they got in a staduim they screwed up the event by letting two teams tie. Of course had they reff'd the event worth a **** the teams would not have needed to call it quits.
Click three times and you can see the NPPL forum which will not have score updates, because the league does not get them out quickly.
Before I go overbord I wll wrap this saying,

"PBN keep NPPL of the front of the site. **** those guys."
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Old 05-18-2008, 05:33 PM #40
CraigAL32
 
 
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All is done, when the week is done NPPL will be back where it deserves.

This is not a PSP vs NPPL thread.

Both have their good and bad.

My main concern was two part and both parts have been fixed.
NPPL main page, and NPPL being censored.
Neither will happen anymore, case closed.

Next!
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Old 05-18-2008, 05:54 PM #41
captshorty7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3s0h0rn7 View Post
You may be wrong Chris. There's plenty of people taking hits in the industry just to spread the word. Why, you yourself are working for a non-profit league, so how can you say that's how the real world works?

tl;dr: Turtle Power
well chris works hard for college and high school students who want to play paintball and help advance what there is out there. Chris really deserves to get paid for all the work that he does for the league but to not get paid shows dedication, a willingness to in essence take a loss in that fact that so many hours are spent working only to see advancement of the league but no added money in his bank account...

to the dm7killer153,
if you where a highly recognized company among paintball and you just got pushed to the side, wouldnt you be pissed? yes fox might promote the sport more but you cant just push those who have been there all along.
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:47 PM #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captshorty7 View Post
to the dm7killer153,
if you where a highly recognized company among paintball and you just got pushed to the side, wouldnt you be pissed? yes fox might promote the sport more but you cant just push those who have been there all along.
it was ONE event.
and they punish the NPPL for almost a full year. and i still consider them being punished because when people saw ***** and a link, talking about a paintball webcast, it didnt take a genius to figure what they werre talking about.

and yes i would be pissed if i was, however, first off i can still record many pro games not on center court. and 2nd, i can record the BULK of my customers. the people who buy a LOT of the paintball movies are the D3, D2 players, lower division players, etc.
show appreciation for the people who make me who i am in the paintball world. i can film the up and coming teams like New Jersey Jesters, CS union, LA endurance, etc.

honestly, its not as horrible as it was made out.
yeah it sucks, but you do what you can with what you have.
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