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Old 04-23-2008, 09:16 PM #106
Influence-Ebola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charger View Post
personally.. I disagree.. if you don't call yourself out when you know your hit.. in practice or in a tournament.. it's cheating.. and no matter how you try to justify it.. if you have to win that way.. what is the point of playing?

I know most of the teams are trying to use it as a edge to beat out that other teams.. doesn't mean I have to agree it's acceptable..
I really like that statement... very true.
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:45 PM #107
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i dunno, i like to win. got that competitive spirit in me, so i take all the edges i can find, some of them are sharper than others i guess.

my mentality is simply, you have to do everything in you're power to win, if i can pull a wipe and not get caught, its one little extra chance to gain a point, its not a definitive solution to the problem of potentially loosing, hence, why i do not view wiping as cheating but think of it as mpore of a penalty concecpt (xball). Not trying to impose my view on others, as though im trying to convert everyones religion, simply stating my view.

like i said i can see where charger is comming from, as i like to play fair most of the time at practice and in tournaments i dont argue every hit or try shiesty stuff. how ever, if im sliding into a corner and a hit rubs off my leg.. you wont see me walking off the field.
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Old 04-24-2008, 11:56 PM #108
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Kieran...STFU boy. ur giving us a bad name
Me and my fellow notorious players would like to state we are not a cheating team...even tho it appears kieran is... we'll beat that outta him at the next practice. seriouslt kieran...ur saying wiping a hit ISNT cheating! wtf. its in the ****ign rule book boy. how did u go form sayig u play the grey area's to saying that ud wipe! jesus. thats sad...
once again we are not a cheating team we play hard and fair.
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Old 04-25-2008, 12:35 AM #109
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Originally Posted by Karzac View Post
i dunno, i like to win. got that competitive spirit in me, so i take all the edges i can find, some of them are sharper than others i guess.

my mentality is simply, you have to do everything in you're power to win, if i can pull a wipe and not get caught, its one little extra chance to gain a point, its not a definitive solution to the problem of potentially loosing, hence, why i do not view wiping as cheating but think of it as mpore of a penalty concecpt (xball). Not trying to impose my view on others, as though im trying to convert everyones religion, simply stating my view.

like i said i can see where charger is comming from, as i like to play fair most of the time at practice and in tournaments i dont argue every hit or try shiesty stuff. how ever, if im sliding into a corner and a hit rubs off my leg.. you wont see me walking off the field.
WOW....someone will have extra refs on them this weekend just in case you get the urge. What is wrong with playing with Honour? Maybe try not running so far and stick to the bunkers you can make. I bet your Team will have some words for you as well.lol
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Old 04-25-2008, 12:44 AM #110
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Kieran I understand your view but alot of people don't take it...

Personally I have no problem calling myself out in a practice because it helps me learn. And I KNOW you have cheated me before by wiping a hopper hit or something like that. Just stupid stuff.

Play as you preach dude, you just said your cheating yourself. Maybe thats what yer doing bud?

I respect you as a baller and person, but your representing us all in a bad way...
See you on the field soon hopefully man.

PS - arguments on the internet are the best.... lawl.
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Old 04-25-2008, 01:23 AM #111
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WOW....someone will have extra refs on them this weekend just in case you get the urge. What is wrong with playing with Honour? Maybe try not running so far and stick to the bunkers you can make. I bet your Team will have some words for you as well.lol
lawl shawn i already torched him about that
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Old 04-25-2008, 02:21 AM #112
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eh i tried to make it clear that im not a big cheater, and im pretty sure the rest of the team knows my view on this. for the record, whether you believe me or not, i didnt wipe once in the last event, ive wiped 2 hits in total at 2 different events. i think ive wiped twice during practices to. if more of the regular ballers read this forum they would agree with me.

i can see where the pros (the biggest cheaters in the sport) stand and i can see where the average tournament baller stands. i also believe the sport is still to locally based where we get at each others throats because of petty crap like this, it sucks, and this is what ultimately brings down the sport.

half the people that play this sport for 2 years quit because its expensive, the other half quit because they dont like the politics and bull **** that happends around.

ill always be on the field, put as many refs as you want on me but you wont see a thing. still love playing with you all, even if you think im a dirty cheating rat, im sure ill feel a few more shots to the head after this post.

see you all on the field.

p.s. dylan just to make it clear to you, i didnt cheat once at e1 in respect of jay's words to me about not cheating. but he knows how i feel about cheating and we discussed this when i first got on the team, so chill out bro. catch me on msn.
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Old 04-25-2008, 02:30 AM #113
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PSh kieran i know u didnt cheat...it was jesse and paul that got the 141's... and they were for pack hits lawl...and dotn give me that **** about only 2 wipes in practice i remeber a certain game were u wiped 2 hits... i believe it was a gog hit and a gun or soemthign liek that...then i cheated when u shtomem cuz u cheater and eventualy the whole team was cheatign and the game was never ending...tjhat was a fun practice... it was all in good fun tho... it more more of a exstream snap drill than a game lol
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Old 04-25-2008, 02:32 AM #114
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lol sorry i was excluding the 3 on 3's where jay himself told me to wipe anything that hit me, and jesse that anal savage wiped like 27 hits of mine.

good times
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Old 04-25-2008, 03:07 AM #115
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I love this debate. I am half with Karzac. I thinking cheating is part of the sport just like anything else. I personally don't cheat in practice, but if I can slide a hit in an event, why not? You better believe there will be a player on the other team doing the same thing whether the rest of his team agrees with it or not. If you get caught, fair is fair, don't argue and blame refs, get off the field and face the wrath of your team. If you get away with it, bonus. It is just like hockey or any other sport, when the ref has there back turned, you play a different game. The only reason there is even a debate about it is because the sport is still so young that there isn't a consensus on the matter like other sports and partially because it is harder to catch cheating in paintball than other sports.
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Old 04-25-2008, 01:18 PM #116
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Do you call a person in hockey that gets a Holding penalty a "cheater"?
Do you call a person in basketball that gets a foul for travelling a "cheater"?


I could make this list go on for effing ever. The point is, sports realize that, that kind of thing is going to happen, regardless of how much "honor" someone says they have. thats why for Hockey they sit that player for 2 minutes and the team is forced to play shorthanded for a bit. That sounds alot like Xball to me doesnt it?

And do all the players that do things like travelling, or holding in those sports always get caught? No they dont, and dont fool yourself into thinking that they do, because you all watch your TV and will scream things like "thats a penalty" The atmosphere in paintball is incredibly similar. You "cheat" in paintball, your taking a risk, i will even go as far to say that some people are "good" at cheating. But the risk is, You wipe, and get caught? that is going to get you a 3 for 1... That sounds like you as good as lost the game to me. Or in Xball, if you blatantly wipe? correct me if im wrong..but Thats a 5 minute.. Thats ALOT of points that your going to be throwing away in those 5 minutes your playing shorthanded.

Personally, Yes..I have wiped hits, and yes i even wiped a hit on the side of my goggles after getting laned at E1. But that was just frusterating, i mean i hadn't been laned once yet, so why start now? But you wont see me literally wiping every hit off.

BTW..my opinion isnt in line with the rest of Ravenous' ..its just how i think.
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Old 04-25-2008, 04:59 PM #117
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For shame Ben for shame! Paintball's about honor, not some silly abstract concept like winning...

Cheating iz wrong! That why's I don't do it. We should go bobby dukes style on everyone who gets caught cheating. No tournies for 5 YEARS. That'll show those filthy cheaters! Besides, doesn't everyone know cheating will keep you from getting good at paintball?!!?

And as a side benefit, a whole bunch of pros will get kicked out of tournament paintball, so it'll be easier for all of us to go pro
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Old 04-25-2008, 06:50 PM #118
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You wonder why there is less and less teams showing up for tourneys ... think about it. Why would some newb team wana plunk $1000 bucks on a tourney, knowing that they don't have a fair shake at winning? Ever pay attention to the woods ball market ... it is kicking the living crap out of speed-ball. I remember in the old days when the cheaters team was ejected from the event none of this 1-4-1, 3-4-1 crap. the reffs were there to check you when you called for a "paintcheck" now they have become glorified babysitters.
While I'm on my soap box ... Overshooting is killing the sport. Again Joe newbie team watches from the sidelines. He knows how much it hurts to get hit once or twice when he was playing with his buddies in the back yard. Now he watches someone that he precives is more experienced than he is get lit up 6+ times ... Do ya think he is going to want to play tourney ball, he's going to go back to the bush
If tournament ball is ever going to be respected as a legit sport and grow there has to be a shift in attitude at tourneys or there is going to be a lot of camo-taped EGO's, DM's, etc
The NBL doesnt allow aluminum bats .. if every team went out and bought one or two would the officials start allowing them? NOT paintball has sold its soul to the Mob. ... Well if every one is cheating then we will just have to accommodate that .... if we give on that then we have to adjust this rule .. and since that rule was bent then we need to warp this one too ... next thing you know we end up with a sport that gets no respect and is dying to the point where even the manufacturers are pulling their support and the players a a bunch of honorless cheaters... Kinda like now, or are we just close?
Cheating is Cheating theres Back and there is white no grey. Paintball will never die ... it just may get run back to the bush.
To fix this ... X-ball borrowed from hockey, now paintball could borrow from soccer. Yellow card a team for any infraction, So many yellow cards .. team is ejected from event .. come back when you want to play by the rules. Think about it.
that is my rant
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Old 04-25-2008, 07:24 PM #119
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to wrap up my argument, the best players in the sport 'cheat.' whether you like it or not, or accept it or not, its the truth.
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:57 PM #120
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^ That may be true but it doesn't necessarily make it right. In my books you risk losing alot of respect from your fellow ballers when your caught cheating.


It all comes down to a thing called "sportsmanship" in my opinion.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:35 PM #121
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hmm.. here are my thoughts..
k.. i think NViousLegionaire's(i love him btw) point.. is quite strong.. yea he did admit to cheating... which kinda sucks.. but i mean.. it seriously is a part of the sport.. not INTENTIONALLY wiping tho.. that's pretty lame.. i personally have never done it, and never intend to.. if i feel i'm hit.. i'll ask for a check... but for example, feeling a shot to your leg as your running, then sliding into a bunker, i'll look at myself.. ask for a check.. if i'm good then i dont care if it got wiped off during my slide.. there's nothing i coulda done about it. like wtf should i do.. STOP once i felt the hit and be like.. umm mr.ref, can u check me? **** that i'll finish off my slide.. if i actually did get hit.. then.. yea that sucks.. i shoulda been out. but i'll try and make sure i get checked no matter what to play an honest game.. If i get hit.. and i see a big slat.. **** it i'm out, i know it and everyone knows it that sees it.. i wont ask for a check when i can tell for myself that i'm hit.. but on parts that are hard to check, like say your foot or sumthin.. ur pod pack... yea ask for a check if you feel or hear anything.. but i mean.. the refs might not catch anything, and so your good to keep playing, which to me isn't cheating or wiping or whatever you wanna called it.. if you did all you can do to check.. then it's just somehting that happens, especially in this sport.. like for a perfect example.. in brawl last year.. in one of our quarters matches againts attack, i think, i got lanned by one ball and i felt it hit my leg, and it was right before i slid.. i got to my bunker, got to my knees, got my gun up and ready, and then ask for a check.. so that once the ref says i'm good.. then i can keep playing.. but he called me out.. i looked.. and i saw nothing at all.. it really pised me off, cuz u guys can voutch.. i'm one bouncy player... (i think it's all the muscle on me ) k but yea.. i was pissed.. but i mean.. whatever, the ref prolly saw the hit before i slid if it did break on me, and was most likely waiting for me to play on maybe?.. call a penalty? i dunno.. but instead i called him for a check cuz i felt something, and he called it... had he not seen it on the slide in.. he polly woulda checked me... seen nothin and called me good to keep playing.. and that to me isnt "cheating" or "wiping", because again, there's nothing that can be done about that.. if i or the ref dont SEE the hit... then i dont take it like a hit.. because paintballs bounce, and bounces can happen quite often, so unless i or the ref see an actual paint hit, then yea i'm out.. if they didn't and i was hit, but it got unintentionally slid off, and i keep playing.. i'm not hit, and that's how i see it...

so yea.. that's my take on it
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Old 04-26-2008, 12:44 AM #122
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Totally agree with this idea.. not sure how to enforce it.. too many variables between refs etc.. if the ref's can consistantly make the calls and enforce the rules as they read.. it would help alot.. but it is some times too hard to make what should be the right call when your tired and what not.. plus your mind if second guessing what it thinks you saw.. so they end up pulling the player and not making the call at all..


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fix this ... X-ball borrowed from hockey, now paintball could borrow from soccer. Yellow card a team for any infraction, So many yellow cards .. team is ejected from event .. come back when you want to play by the rules. Think about it.
that is my rant
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Old 04-26-2008, 12:49 AM #123
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Frenchie.. don't take this personally.. but I've lost alot of respect for the way you play paintball.. the first IS08 really made me open my eyes to how you believe you have to play the game..

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For shame Ben for shame! Paintball's
about honor, not some silly abstract concept like winning...
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Old 04-26-2008, 05:12 PM #124
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So let me get this straight........we have one player from Div 1 Ravenous and one player from Div 1 Notorious who have publicly admitted on this forum that they cheat when they play paintball. One of these players even admitted he cheated at BCPPL E1.

So let's think about this issue from purely a business and ethics standpoint:

1. BCPPL: Does the owner of the BCPPL invite Notorious and Ravenous back to his tourneys when these teams have players publicly admitting they cheat? How does he invite teams from Alberta, the Interior or the US to the BCPPL and then knowingly allow teams such as Notorious and Ravenous (with admitted cheaters) to play? How does the owner of the BCPPL try to promote his business/league as a great place to play speedball when he allows teams to compete who have admitted cheaters?

2. Sponsors: I wonder how these team's sponsors (ex. Proto for Ravenous) feel about reading public posts that state players on their teams cheat. I wonder how this will affect paintball businesses associated with these teams if they continue condone cheating and don't do anything about it.

3. Team Captains/Team Organizers: Someone has put a bunch of time and effort into organizing the Ravenous and Notorious teams. And now their teams will be categorized as condoning cheating unless they do something such as remove those players from their team roster

The Future has Two Outcomes for These Teams:
Option 1: Allow these admitted cheaters to continue to play for your team and know that any victory or podium result you achieve will always be held in suspicion by your peers and competitors.
Option 2: Remove these players from your team and then know that any victory or podium result was properly earned and your team will gain alot more respect from the paintball community.

The Proof is Always in the Pudding:
Let's wait to see if these two players are at E2.....if they are, we will know everyone associated with these teams (the teammates, sponsors and team captains etc) all condone cheating!

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Old 04-26-2008, 06:42 PM #125
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So let me get this straight........we have one player from Div 1 Ravenous and one player from Div 1 Notorious who have publicly admitted on this forum that they cheat when they play paintball. One of these players even admitted he cheated at BCPPL E1.

So let's think about this issue from purely a business and ethics standpoint:

1. BCPPL: Does the owner of the BCPPL invite Notorious and Ravenous back to his tourneys when these teams have players publicly admitting they cheat? How does he invite teams from Alberta, the Interior or the US to the BCPPL and then knowingly allow teams such as Notorious and Ravenous (with admitted cheaters) to play? How does the owner of the BCPPL try to promote his business/league as a great place to play speedball when he allows teams to compete who have admitted cheaters?

2. Sponsors: I wonder how these team's sponsors (ex. Proto for Ravenous) feel about reading public posts that state players on their teams cheat. I wonder how this will affect paintball businesses associated with these teams if they continue condone cheating and don't do anything about it.

3. Team Captains/Team Organizers: Someone has put a bunch of time and effort into organizing the Ravenous and Notorious teams. And now their teams will be categorized as condoning cheating unless they do something such as remove those players from their team roster

The Future has Two Outcomes for These Teams:
Option 1: Allow these admitted cheaters to continue to play for your team and know that any victory or podium result you achieve will always be held in suspicion by your peers and competitors.
Option 2: Remove these players from your team and then know that any victory or podium result was properly earned and your team will gain alot more respect from the paintball community.

The Proof is Always in the Pudding:
Let's wait to see if these two players are at E2.....if they are, we will know everyone associated with these teams (the teammates, sponsors and team captains etc) all condone cheating!
Are you freaking kidding me? Are you merely slow, or do you simply have no experience with high level paintball?

Go browse any pro forum on this very website, and make a post asking if their team cheats. I have seen such posts on numerous occasions, and the answer is invariably "yes", straight out of the pro's mouths where their sponsors can clearly see. Have any of their sponsors dropped them for it? Hell no. Many of the most well known cheaters in the entire sport, such as Chris Lasoya and Markus Nielson, have huge sponsorship, despite large amounts of video evidence showing blatant cheats.

Cheating is a part of paintball. End of Story. Ask any pro player, or even amature bcppl player, and they will tell you the same thing. If you ask any amature player if they have ever cheated (consequently making them cheaters), 9/10 will say yes they have. The BCPPL knows this, accepts it, and they have skilled refferees and large penalties to compensate for it. These measures simply wouldn't be in place if they had a no cheating policy, as they'd merely arbitrarily eject teams. Neither player is going to be kicked off their team, neither team is getting kicked out of the BCPPL, and the BCPPL isn't going to get a bad reputation because they "condone cheating". For god's sake, they have one of the best reffing crews in the entire world of paintball.

SVP might dispute this, and everyone knows the E1 reffing wasn't perfect, but where will you find better refs than impact semi pro, danny miller, and former total eclipse players? I expect that the kinks will be worked out by E2 and we'll see even less shenanigans than at E1 (where I saw almost zero blatant cheating, and observed plenty of penalties!). If anything, the other teams should be happy that they're playing against filthy cheaters, as it's awfully easy to beat a team after they get a 3 for 1.
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Old 04-27-2008, 12:46 AM #126
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Quote:
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Do you call a person in hockey that gets a Holding penalty a "cheater"?
Do you call a person in basketball that gets a foul for travelling a "cheater"?


This is totally different. In paintball you get points for eliminations, so wiping a hit is the same as pulling the puck out of the net, or the ball out of the endzone. It's not the same as travelling, or holding, which are simple misconducts. Overshooting would be the equivalent to a misconduct, bounce on your gun, etc. Wiping is not the same thing.

While I would agree that cheating is something that's hard to stop, and is essentially an inevitability, it's not the same thing.



To anyone claiming they cheat in this thread, don't expect me to stop until you're hiding behind the deadbox at E2. And Ravenous, you might want to point out who NViouslegionaire is before your games, so the rest of you don't get sent to the hospital in a guilty-by-association overshoot fest .


To anyone who thinks the reffing is sub-par, or that refs favour particular teams or anything like that, it's bull****. I've reffed two BCPPL events now, as well as playing numerous ones. After I reffed brawl last year I read claims of biased reffing and whatnot. That simply does not happen. As a ref, regardless of whether friends or teammates are playing, I could give a **** less who wins. I don't make any extra money at the end of the weekend, and I'm not going to lose any friends for reffing them fairly.

Last edited by canadian kid : 04-27-2008 at 12:56 AM.
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