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Old 04-04-2008, 03:20 AM #1
VicReschke0626
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08 Spyder RS Build-Up: "Super Bee" CO2 Beast

Here it is, for all those who have been tracking my progress, posts and questions....I have finished my RS.

Backstory
After having my tournement paintball days came to an abrupt end shortly after high school from a series of knee injuries, I finally decided to get back into the sport several years later. Seeing as I'll probably only play recball now, I decided I wanted to make a gun that would eat CO2 for breakfast, but still throw ropes like a tournement level marker. This project was initially going to be built off of a VS1, but when the news of the RS came around, I was sold. I ordered one the first chance I could.

Having played for years, I knew what I was looking for the gun to do. I had and idea of what I would want to upgrade and determined early on that I would be leaving the valve alone for the most part, because it is new for RS. So, shortly after getting the RS into my hands, I stripped it apart and made my assessments on what I would order. I did some more research, picked out my parts, pooled my money, sent some e-mails and made some phone calls. By the end of the month, I had all my parts in and the RS was about to be turning into a CO2 breathing monster.



So, without further adieu, I present to you, my completed RS build up.

Oh look, a brand spanking new Spyder RS.


Not exactly.


Alamo City Paintball Del-Flo Bolt and Delrin Striker Combo.


SE Valve with ACP Delrin Bullitt Cup Seals(Cup Seals not currently in gun. Valve face chews them up after about a case or so of paint. Currently working with ACP to redesign them so they'll work better and longer.)




The RS Ups List

-J&J Edge Elite Kit (5 backs; .682, .685, .688, .691, .693, and 3 tips; 10", 12" 14")
-CP Pro-Mini On/Off
-CP Rake Trigger with Magnetic Return Mod
-CP Clamping Feedneck
-CP VS Regulator Adaptor
-Kingman VS Body Kit
-ACP Del-Flo Bolt with two o-rings
-ACP Delrin/SS Slim Striker
-ACP Delrin Bullitt Cup Seals Being redesigned currently, NOT IN GUN!!!
-Palmer Stabilizer Male with Q-D for easy removal without tools
-Flat Black Anodized SS Braided Hose
-Pair of 16oz Anti-Siphoned CO2 tanks, for playing
-20oz CO2 tanks with remote, for testing and tuning

Performance

Well, I don't have a chrono currently, and I wasn't running to the field today, I had enough to do already, but I can assure you, it shoots VERY, VERY well. With some full 20oz tanks and the remote line hooked up to them, I grabbed my allen keys to do some tuning and headed off to the backyard with a "fresh" case of 2nds. It doesn't kick too badly at all and it'll re-cock well under 300psi. I was really laying into it in semi and 3-round burst with the eyes off down to the neighborhood of 250psi, maybe a little lower (Kingman's gauge isn't perfect, no gauge is) and it still recocked fine. As the tank cooled down and lost pressure (who would have thunk it that ripping multiple hoppers on an overcast, 46F degree day would chill a tank) the gun began experiencing recocking issues, but when I bumped up the Palmer to feed it almost 300psi again it recocked with no problems. Provided it's not a gas hog, I'll probably leave it there and aim to pull that extra 100-150 shots out of each tank.

So, how did it handle shooting CO2 at a decently quick ROF on a cool day? Like a CHAMP! The Palmer got pretty cold and had some condensation on it, but the valve area of the gun wasn't cold, cool, frozen, wet or even damp at all. Best of all, this thing throws ropes. With the cheap paint matched the best I could with the J&J kit and the Palmer set to just a hair under 300psi, the shots were right on top of each other. I ripped through a half hopper at a target from about 50ft without experiencing any drop off, inconsistencies, or issues. Each shot was right where I expected it to be. It wasn't exactly ball on ball, they bobbled a couple inches to the left and right, but I suspect that more of a result of the cheap paint not matching the barrel right on every single shot, than the gun.

Really, much as Nerobro stated a couple weeks ago, really the only limitation here is the tank. But, that shouldn't be too much of an issue for weekend recball play. But just as an idea of the abuse I put this baby through during testing, below is a picture my two 20oz CO2 tanks that I was using with a remote line for this initial test and tune. On the right, is your normal 20oz tank. On the left is the 20oz tank that I pretty much just hooked up and started walking the trigger as fast as I could non-stop until the tank pressure dropped so much that the gun wouldn't re-cock at all. It was all dry firing, I have no idea how many shots it was, easily less than a 1000 shots, but more than a couple hoppers full. Once the tank warmed back up I was able to pull another 150+ shots out of it, so I guesstimate that I shot about 700-800 shots during my CO2 walking rampage. And even through all that, the body of the gun never got cold, cool, or even close to damp to the touch. It was bone dry and plenty clean and happy inside. The tank and the Palmer on the other hand....they got a work out.

On the left, the completely walked at a high ROF 20oz. On the right, a normal 20oz tank.


Overall, I'm very happy with this gun. VERY happy. It does everything I built it to do. It fires CO2 happily at high ROF and puts everyball right on top of the last. The tank can cool, it can warm up, but as long as it can output atleast 300psi to the Palmer to feed to the gun, it shoots great. With little to no shootdown at all, and very consistent and precise accuracy.

I'm not sure what upgrades I'm going to do next, if any at all. I'm thinking I might pick up a spring kit to do some finer tuning once the new chrono arrives, but other than that, I'm pretty set. I'm an old paintballer at heart and I only use semi, so I probably won't be going the Tadao with M7 route anytime soon.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank Alamo City Paintball, Palmer's Pursuit Shop, Action Village, Discount Paintball and Custom Products. I spent plenty of time on the phone with all of them picking their brains and inventory for the right ideas and parts to make this gun possible. I'd especially like to thank Ron from Alamo City Paintball. He's a great guy to deal with, he was EXTREMELY helpful in getting some high quality delrin parts into this gun. I also want to thank all of you on here that have provided input and suggestions along the way. I'd name you all by name, but then I'd be typing forever, and this is long enough already.

Finally, one last picture of the completed RS. Why? Well, who doesn't like to drool over a nice Spyder? Especially when it's yours....



Let me know what you think guys! I'm eager to hear all of your input!!!

-Reschke
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Last edited by VicReschke0626 : 04-21-2008 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:54 AM #2
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not bad at all, but c02, cmon hpa
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:28 AM #3
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should've started with the 08 electra

nice workhorse you got there
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:15 AM #4
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A few words of warning, watch what oil you put into that Palmer. It is an excellent reg, but some oils react badly to it's o-rings.

Also, AS CO2 and a remote, I remember reading somewhere that it essentially funnels liquid CO2. Don't quote me, but if I were you, I would post a question about it on the Air Systems forum.

Anyway, looks great. Good job.
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:54 AM #5
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It will only funnel it depending on the position of the tank. As long as it's vertical with the valve up he should be fine using a remote.
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:23 AM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicReschke0626 View Post
The tank and the Palmer on the other hand....they got a work out.
i know what you mean, when i decide to walk my gun to see how many shots i can pull off (or to try to chop a ball) i have to wear a glove on my left hand because the reg gets so cold.


project looks great, now get it to a chrono, take a vid, and get someone to goldwave it to see how fast you're shooting.
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:29 AM #7
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Originally Posted by mxer394 View Post
A few words of warning, watch what oil you put into that Palmer. It is an excellent reg, but some oils react badly to it's o-rings.

Also, AS CO2 and a remote, I remember reading somewhere that it essentially funnels liquid CO2. Don't quote me, but if I were you, I would post a question about it on the Air Systems forum.

Anyway, looks great. Good job.
A remote and an anti-siphon will turn into a siphon.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:12 AM #8
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Originally Posted by black_angus View Post
A remote and an anti-siphon will turn into a siphon.
That is correct. But, I'm not running the A-S tanks on the remote. I have the A-S tanks to use during games without the remote, and the 20oz tanks (non A-S, stock tanks) with a remote for testing and tuning the gun when I'm tinkering with it on the work bench. Being able to work on it flat on the table and just hook up a Q-D for air and not have a big tank bobbling around on it is a nice little option I always like to have with a CO2 gun.

As far as HPA, I know it's better. I'm well aware of all of its benefits, I played plenty of 5 man speedball tourneys before my instant vacation from paintball was physically enforced on me. But I'm not running it, this gun will be a CO2 gun. I went with CO2 for few reasons...

1 - Closest HPA fill for me is a 25min drive. At $3.50 a gallon for 87 by me, I wasn't driving that far for HPA fills.
2 - My friends and I that I play with still have our fill station for CO2 from years ago and we can get fill tanks easily. 5min walk for a free fill vs. a half-hour drive with the expense of the fuel and fill. Easy decision for me.
3 - It was a challenge, quick shooting guns and awesome performance usually don't go hand in hand with CO2. I like a good challenge.

As far as the chrono, I'm not sure when it'll be in. I used to have one, but I found it in several pieces when I pulled all off my gear out of the closet after 5 years. My friends are buying the next chrono for our field, so it's all on when they finally order it. Should be within a month or so though, but I won't be making it to a field before then to use theirs. (my weekends in April are booked solid, I won't be playing till May) And as far as video, I don't have a digital video camera other than on my smartphone so videos won't be happening. And Goldwave? I'm not about to open up my slow, fat fingers for the flame war of how slow I shoot and how some 12 year old shoots faster than me. I have always averaged 11-14bps on any electro gun I've ever owned, so use that as a baseline in your head for how fast I was firing non-stop until the 20oz cried for mercy.

Keep the feedback coming guys!

-Reschke
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:26 AM #9
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sounds like a fun gun! Not sure I dig the yellow body accents, but then that is all a preference thing anyway. What are the conical cupseals supposed to do? I have seem them but didn't get any because I wasn't sure of the point.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:48 AM #10
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sounds like a fun gun! Not sure I dig the yellow body accents, but then that is all a preference thing anyway.
you're right, he needs superbee stickers...
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:26 AM #11
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Originally Posted by DFSniper View Post
you're right, he needs superbee stickers...
You might just have gave my RS it's official nickname! I've been trying to think of a good one. If you saw the gun in person though, you'd see it's actually closer to gold and black than bright yellow. I like the Super Bee idea though, anybody with any other suggestions, post them! I'd love to hear them.

On the topic of the yellow parts, and why I picked that color scheme, the simplest answer is, curiousity. I had seen red and black, blue and black, and green and black VS's, but I had never stumbled across a yellow and black VS that was really done well. So I decided to give it a shot.

In response to the bullitt/connic cup seals, in theory, they're supposed to provide a more laminar flow of air into the valve and thus drop the operating psi a little bit. For a few extra bucks at the end of my order from ACP, I figured I'd give them a shot. Do they work? Well, I am running my RS at about 275-280psi when it's set up out of the box to run at 300psi, and it'll re-cock consistently even lower than that. Is it just the cup seals providing that change? Probably not, I'm sure the striker being lighter and the Palmer being able to recharge and breath much better and more precisely than the stock reg has a big helping hand in it.

And yes, it is a very, very fun gun. It's loud, fast and will run on any ol' CO2 tank prettty well. Although it runs even better on A-S or a remote, which is what I will run it on regularly. I might just need to fill up those 20oz tanks again and paint the backyard again this afternoon just for s**ts and giggles.

-Reschke
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Old 04-04-2008, 12:12 PM #12
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You might just have gave my RS it's official nickname! I've been trying to think of a good one.
i thought about that too after i posted that!
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Old 04-04-2008, 12:26 PM #13
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That... is one sexy Spyder..

Sorta makes me wanna get one for a back up..
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Old 04-04-2008, 12:50 PM #14
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Nice build, 1000 rounds on a tank is pretty ****ty efficiency. Did you try the stock reg to see how it performed?
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Old 04-04-2008, 12:52 PM #15
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I think he said he was dry firing so that is a bit more wasteful of air too yes?
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Old 04-04-2008, 02:17 PM #16
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I think he said he was dry firing so that is a bit more wasteful of air too yes?
You thought correctly. And it was about 40F degrees outside, and I didn't stop dry firing until the tank was so frozen and empty that it couldn't put out any more pressure. I wasn't testing efficiency, it was a test of how fast and long I could fire the gun on CO2 without having any problems or issues. Of which it had none, the body of the gun was as dry and warm as you'd expect it to be if you were using HPA. I'll get some efficiency testing done once I get back in town and fill my tanks. The gun wasn't built with the intentions of being a gas sipper though, it was built to be a CO2 workhorse. I'll happily give up some efficiency if it'll pump CO2 through it at constant high ROF and still shoot like it's running HPA.
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:19 PM #17
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That is one super sweet RS.
I want to do that to mine
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:35 PM #18
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Nice job. Next step is to get 1300 shots from that 20oz.
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:54 PM #19
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Nice job. Next step is to get 1300 shots from that 20oz.
Yeah, I'm thinking I might put a stiffer valve spring in, it breathes pretty well, I think I might want to get that dwell to shorten up and snap that valve shut a little faster.

-Reschke
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:09 PM #20
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Very nice. I like the quick disconnect idea too, I may have to find out where you picked that up.

I'd try and get some VS grips for it though, so you won't have the red logo anymore. Other than that... definitely worth the .
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:34 PM #21
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Very nice. I like the quick disconnect idea too, I may have to find out where you picked that up.

I'd try and get some VS grips for it though, so you won't have the red logo anymore. Other than that... definitely worth the .
I ordered the Q/D from Palmer with the Stablizer. I just put some telfon tape on it and threaded it into the 90 real nice.

I like that VS grip idea, I might just have to do that. The grips are kind of a eye sore. So it's done, but not completely done. Once I get it tested more and chronoed I'll look into the spring kit. And for pure cosmetic reasons I'm going to look into those VS grips and I'm hunting for a 1/24th scale 71 Dodge Super Bee decal set. Put that Super Bee logo right over the RS. Make it a Spyder Super Bee.

-Reschke
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