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Old 03-26-2008, 12:35 PM #22
careyman_462
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Originally Posted by Swerve22 View Post
I don't know, it seems like we're getting a little to far into the tinfoil hat zone when we start talking about Marijuana laws being specifically designed as a way to get Black people into prison. Cally me crazy...
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Originally Posted by timmyt View Post
Really? To me, not letting blacks drink out of the same water foutains as whites sounded absolutely crazy.

But it was true .
Marijuana laws are to get marijuana offenders, period. They do not specifically target blacks. LE in certain areas might, but the laws do not.

Besides, it's difficult to land yourself in prison for marijuana.

EDIT - To the OP, from what I've heard Japan is much more sexually open than the States. In the high school bathrooms, people get caught ****in' all the time. And even parents are open about their children having sex with their bf/gf. A buddy of mine is still dating the Japanese foreign exchange student from our HS, and when he went to visit her parents in Japan, they joked about them sleeping together. Yet, Japan has better numbers the the Netherlands.
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:42 PM #23
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Originally Posted by Swerve22 View Post
However it doesn't promote in the least the notion that legalization of those activities would actually be good in any way for society, or refute the idea that they would not be detrimental to society in a number of various ways.
Good in any way for society?

Since when do you have to demonstrate something to be good for society in order for it to be legal? Am I missing something and I never realized my friendly neighbours to the south are in fact a fascist collectivist state?

How are Sports Cars good for society?
How are luxury goods such as iPods good for society?

I think the notion that citizens should be allowed to do whatever they want so long as it is not demonstrably harmful to society as a whole is the most important ideal in any free society, do you disagree?

And yes actually it clearly does refute that legalizing them would be automatically "detrimental in any number of ways". It shows that it is possible to have a society in which those activities are legal without having widespread incidence of the activities examined in the study.

The following statement is 100% irrefutable fact (assuming the study is valid)

"It is possible for a westernized nation to have legalized marijuana and prostitution without seeing widespread rates of teenage sexual activity, drug use, teenage pregnancy and irresponsible attitudes towards birth control".

Therefore, if an advocate for legalization makes that statement he is correct. If someone opposed to legalization makes the statement that "legalization will unavoidably 'cause the afformentioned issues to spiral out of control" he is wrong. If he says "it may happen" the pro legalization person can say "this is not necessarily true" and be correct.

It proves the fact that a westernized nation can responsibly allow their citizens the freedom to partake in those activities without experiencing widespread problems hypothesized to be associated with those activities.

It's actually quite significant. Think of it as "Yes we can"

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Originally Posted by Swerve22 View Post
Also, like I said in my original post there is much more factors aside from just whether or not it is "legal" that determine whether or not it would lead to "widespread rates of moral corruption".
Ok, this is what the study means.

The argument that "Illegal = lower moral corruption" is false
The argument that "Legal = higher moral corruption" is false

What arguments you draw from there must work within those two facts. Your problem seems to stem that you think people are saying

"Legal = lower moral corruption" but that isn't necessarily true, just as the argument that "Illegal = higher moral corruption" also is not necessarily true.

It is very easy to prove a statement as being false, it's harder to prove it as being true.

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Originally Posted by Swerve22 View Post
I don't have a hypothesis, I've already pointed out that I don't have a fully formed or even substantial opinion on the subject. It's just annoying to see people cherry picking facts about as subject with many, many complex factors other than "it's legal" and "it's not legal"
It isn't cherry picking, it means, unequivocally what I've said it means.
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:51 PM #24
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Why else would Harry Anslinger, with no scientific evidence or investigation into the drug marijuana, make it illegal to possess?

Who were the main consumers of marijuana at that time?

Actually, you'll be surprised to know, it was the mormons. Then the mexicans and then the...well I'll let Harry Anslinger say it himself:

"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others." - Harry Anslinger

This is proof the laws were born out of racism.

http://www.stanford.edu/~njbuff/conf...n_restrepo.pdf.

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Old 03-26-2008, 12:54 PM #25
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More Anslinger quotes for those that are interested:

"...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races."

"Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death."

"Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men."

"Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing"

"You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother."

"Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:55 PM #26
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If you guys only knew the truth about MJ.

It is necessary to find out what is really going on in this worlde. I've been over thist before and you people chose to ignore it so no point going over it again except to point out that it is a way to see things we otherwise cannot see (along with other medical substances that are considered "hallugijenic").
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:15 PM #27
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...what's this...
a liberal attacking religion

I bet you're the one that thinks a cross in a jar or piss is art
Or thinks Christmas trees shouldn't be put up in malls
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:32 PM #28
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Originally Posted by Murph1329 View Post
...what's this...
a liberal attacking religion

I bet you're the one that thinks a cross in a jar or piss is art
Or thinks Christmas trees shouldn't be put up in malls
What's that?

A ******* resorting to generalizations and unsubstantiated attacks.
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:43 PM #29
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Originally Posted by Murph1329 View Post
...what's this...
a liberal attacking religion

I bet you're the one that thinks a cross in a jar or piss is art
Or thinks Christmas trees shouldn't be put up in malls
hahaha what a well founded rebuttal.

Nice autococker though.

OP, there are MOUNDS of evidence that support your statements out there. Many drug laws, especially the ones regarding marijuana, are clearly not based on facts anymore. Marijuana is really undeniably safer than alcohol and cigarettes(though you might be able to feebly debate the second one if you wanted to be stubborn), and countries/regions that have decriminalized it certainly haven't had any trouble with it yet, if not the opposite. They are only standing because of cultural and moral bull****.
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:48 PM #30
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I've been over thist before and you people chose to ignore it...
I wonder why.
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:52 PM #31
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Originally Posted by Murph1329 View Post
...what's this...
a liberal attacking religion

I bet you're the one that thinks a cross in a jar or piss is art
Or thinks Christmas trees shouldn't be put up in malls
Umm, nope. I am simply a non-liberal pointing out that our society has a lot of downfalls yet we usually look at European societies and call them socialists when they are doing a lot better in terms of societal issues then we are. We need new attitudes in our society. Instead of approaching issues like sex and drugs with honesty, we try to scare kids into staying away from them, and it only ends up with kids not thinking they have the truth about these things and trying them. If we are honest about drugs and sex, if we treat them with a less extreme attitude, it won't be a big deal in this country.
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:16 PM #32
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What's that?

A ******* resorting to generalizations and unsubstantiated attacks.
Dont worry, just ignore him, he'll leave soon enough.
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:38 PM #33
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Swerve,

Aren't you a double Poly Sci/Japanese major? You should of known then that you don't establish your case by falling on opinionated words like good and bad.

Look at GNH, and such and determine if Dutch people live happier by survey, and if they are content then that is "good" in their realm. From an outsiders realm though that may not be "good."

Where am I going?

I dunno, that just was really big.

I think this says something a lot more about our culture in how we over sexualize our lives, but undereducate our people on pertinent issues, but we LOVE to keep everyone in the know about actor relationships.
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:47 PM #34
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I never understood why prostitution is illegal.
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:57 PM #35
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I never understood why prostitution is illegal.
its not taxed. plus theres a certain group of people that would consider it "immoral".
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:31 AM #36
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I think most of you missed Tony's point, and it's the fact that people who are on moral crusades (See: Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians) point to vices like drugs and prostitution as the base for moral decay in a society. Now, look at a place like Amsterdam, where these 'vices' are on display everywhere, and look at how well they're doing. They haven't been punished by God for being 'sinful', they're free and safer than we are, have better education, hell, they even have better health care, AND they have these vices as commonplace in their lives.
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:38 AM #37
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Pretty much George, I'd be willing to bet that the repression actually leads to more drug use and unsafe sex. It's just like how all the big partiers at my high school were the kids who went to Catholic Middle School.

Although I think something needs to be said for the fact that the US has a more stratified society, which gives us a much larger group of poor people. And the poor are statistically more likely to use drugs and engage in unsafe sex.
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:49 AM #38
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Pretty much George, I'd be willing to bet that the repression actually leads to more drug use and unsafe sex. It's just like how all the big partiers at my high school were the kids who went to Catholic Middle School.


I've never seen anyone drink more alcohol than my friends girlfriend who went to Catholic school until 9th grade, then from Freshman-Senior year in a Charter school. It's kind of worrying, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Adema3412 View Post
Although I think something needs to be said for the fact that the US has a more stratified society, which gives us a much larger group of poor people. And the poor are statistically more likely to use drugs and engage in unsafe sex.
What's the relevancy to this thread, other than statistics? Poor =/= Immoral.
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:45 AM #39
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Originally Posted by Furious Ge0rge View Post
I think most of you missed Tony's point, and it's the fact that people who are on moral crusades (See: Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians) point to vices like drugs and prostitution as the base for moral decay in a society. Now, look at a place like Amsterdam, where these 'vices' are on display everywhere, and look at how well they're doing. They haven't been punished by God for being 'sinful', they're free and safer than we are, have better education, hell, they even have better health care, AND they have these vices as commonplace in their lives.
Yes, but many of these right wing conservative Christians are actually missing the boat, imo. If you are a Christian, you follow the teachings/life of Christ. If you're not, have at all the hedonism you can handle. Anthropologically speaking (and I believe I can make a pretty decent case for this Biblically) the indicator of moral decay in a society is the state of it's smallest unit or organization. In this case that would be family, or familial bonds. Although we are no longer an agrarian society where family was crucial to "get by," healthy family is still a critical element in the continued "healthy" growth of our nation. The base for moral decay in my example would be those things which contribute to the breakdown of the family unit.

One last thought.....saying "they haven't been punished by God" and then pointing to the state of their society is irrelevant, imo. Assuming for a second that God still punishes nations as He did Sodom and Gomorrah or the Philistines, etc, and assuming that God is infinite/omnipotent/omniscient and you are human it would be impossible for you to know if their time just hasn't come yet. It's not like one person slept with someone of the same gender in Sodom and then God just rained fire on it. This was a build up over time and such could be the case in your example as well.
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Old 03-27-2008, 11:45 AM #40
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Good in any way for society?

Since when do you have to demonstrate something to be good for society in order for it to be legal? Am I missing something and I never realized my friendly neighbours to the south are in fact a fascist collectivist state?

How are Sports Cars good for society?
How are luxury goods such as iPods good for society?

I think the notion that citizens should be allowed to do whatever they want so long as it is not demonstrably harmful to society as a whole is the most important ideal in any free society, do you disagree?
I agree, I think you're worrying a little too much about the wording I used here - when I said "not good for society" I was meaning to phrase it in the same manner that somebody would say "I don't know that that would be good for your health" or "That won't be good for your study habbits" etc, basically meaning it's bad or harmful. I believe in a free society and thus if something is not demonstrably harmful I am by no means for the criminalization of it.
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And yes actually it clearly does refute that legalizing them would be automatically "detrimental in any number of ways". It shows that it is possible to have a society in which those activities are legal without having widespread incidence of the activities examined in the study.
That's exactly the thing, it doesn't refute the fact that it could be detrimental in a number of ways if legalized here in America. It refutes the fact that in a Dutch society and culture the legalization of such will not instantly cause usage to go up dramatically.

Quote:
The following statement is 100% irrefutable fact (assuming the study is valid)

"It is possible for a westernized nation to have legalized marijuana and prostitution without seeing widespread rates of teenage sexual activity, drug use, teenage pregnancy and irresponsible attitudes towards birth control".
This is correct, but that fact has little to no bearing on the argument of whether or not it should be legalized here in the US. The culture is different, the people are different, attitudes are different, etc. etc. Japan has similar laws to the US and they have the lowest rate of any country. Why? Not because of the laws, because of the culture and attitudes of the people there. I'm not going to attempt to make the argument against decriminalization here because like I said I don't really have much of an opinion on the subject, but like I originally pointed out this thread doesn't really prove anything aside from the fact that it's possible for the Dutch.
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Therefore, if an advocate for legalization makes that statement he is correct. If someone opposed to legalization makes the statement that "legalization will unavoidably 'cause the afformentioned issues to spiral out of control" he is wrong. If he says "it may happen" the pro legalization person can say "this is not necessarily true" and be correct.
Which is true, but anyone making the latter statement is using pure propaganda anyway, so it's pretty easy to point out that they're being childish regardless. They can make the opposite argument that it could cause a number of detrimental effects and find some statistics somewhere in Louisiana that back up their case to an extent as well. I don't think it's ever been an argument of "certainly will" and "certainly won't", but rather an argument of speculation on both sides.
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:17 PM #41
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...what's this...
a liberal attacking religion

I bet you're the one that thinks a cross in a jar or piss is art
Or thinks Christmas trees shouldn't be put up in malls
What in the living **** are you talking about..?
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:47 PM #42
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What's the relevancy to this thread, other than statistics? Poor =/= Immoral.
Low income and specifically black youth are more likely to use drugs and to become pregnant.

I'm just pointing to the fact that places like the Netherlands due to their extensive welfare system are far less stratified and do not have these low income individuals, which may in part affect their statistics
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