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Old 03-25-2008, 11:57 PM #1
tonysk83
 
 
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Those crazy Dutch and their support of marijuana and prostitution!

So, why do we continue to have a perception of the Netherlands as a place of crazy, free spirited liberals, who are just drug using, sex addicted hippies?

I have no idea. In the Netherlands marijuana use is basically legal in designated coffee shops. Prostitution is also legal, walk into the common stereotype "red light district" and pick a prostitute out of the window and go at her.

So all these crazy freedoms must lead to a chaotic society, incapable of functioning in the globalized world? A country full of lazy citizens dependent on the government for everything?

Well, not so much.

First, how about we see sexual activity of Dutch teens compared to American teens?

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfareblack.htm

Quote:
And on that score, we should compare the U.S to Europe, which not only promotes early sex education to a far greater degree, but also has far greater welfare benefits for mothers with dependent children. And the success or failure of these two very different policies can be seen in the following statistics:

Percent who have not had intercourse by age 20:

Boys Girls
Belgium 61 63
Netherlands 58 62
Germany 33 28
Norway 33 25
United Kingdom 24 23
France 9 25
United States 12 16

Percent of sexually active single 15 to 19-year olds using
birth control:

Germany 95%
United Kingdom 92
Netherlands 88
Norway 87
Sweden 79
Denmark 70
United States 56

Teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers:

United States 98.0
United Kingdom 46.6
Norway 40.2
Canada 38.6
Finland 32.1
Sweden 28.3
Denmark 27.9
Netherlands 12.1
Japan 10.5

Teenage mothers per 1,000 teenagers

United States 54
United Kingdom 31
Canada 28
France 25
Norway 25
Germany 20
Finland 19
Denmark 16
Switzerland 10
Netherlands 9
Japan 4
Hmm, looks like the U.S. with all our religious people denouncing pre-marital sex aren't doing a great job.

How about drug use in the U.S. compared to the Netherlands where to get marijuana all you need to do is find a local coffee shop that sells it.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/li...e-cannabis-use

Quote:
#1 New Zealand: 22.23%
#2 Australia: 17.93%
#3 United States: 12.3%
#4 United Kingdom: 9%
#5 Switzerland: 8.5%
#6 Ireland: 7.91%
#7 Spain: 7.58%
#8 Canada: 7.41%
#9 Netherlands: 5.24%
#10 Belgium: 5.01%
So why do we continue to support our failing social policies in the U.S.? Why don't we promote better early childhood education? Why don't we look at our neighbor across the sea and take some hints?

This doesn't have to do with me wanting to get high and score a prostitute legally. It has to do with all the money we are wasting every year by bringing people into our justice system from petty drug/prostitution offenses. It has to do with money we lose from having to give welfare to single mothers who had a baby at 18. That is why we need to do something about our current failing social policies.
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:00 AM #2
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Telling kids condoms do not work is one thing making the US's numbers high, among many others but its late and I don't fee like doing alot.
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:27 AM #3
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americans need to reconsider what they see as crime. atleast thats something that can be changed, this culture however...
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:32 AM #4
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You have to factor in populations of these countries, i know they are percentages but seeing as we have more people, we see it as a bigger problem.

I think weed and hookers should be legalized in America because weed is safer than alcohol and prostitution is an agreement between two consenting adults = perfectly legal in my book. Im a Christian and oppose both of these but I think people should choose for themselves whether or not to do those things.

With freedom comes responsibility and I think most Americans lack that king of responsibility now. Too many people abuse freedoms and ruin it for the rest of us.
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:58 AM #5
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I define liberty as the freedom to do as you please without harming or interfering with anyone else's life. Laws about sex and most drugs go against that.
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Old 03-26-2008, 01:07 AM #6
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2006 Minister of Justice Piet Hein Donner provoked an outcry when he suggested the Netherlands might accept Sharia law in a constitutional manner. "It is a sure certainty for me: if two thirds of all Netherlanders tomorrow would want to introduce Sharia, then this possibility must exist. Could you block this legally? It would also be a scandal to say 'this isn't allowed! The majority counts. That is the essence of democracy." [25 wiki

Sharia is ridiculous. They're too afraid to stand up to the alarming numbers of Islamic immigrants.
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:20 AM #7
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I think that argument is fundamentally flawed. I'll elaborate more when I get back from class.

The argument for marijuana does not account for other factors that are relevant to the decision. What about people driving under the influence of the drug?

The same goes for prostitution. Teenage sex rates and pregnancies aren't the only indicators of whether prostitution is better off legal or no. It also doesn't show any correlation that teen pregnancies are lower BECAUSE of legalized prostitution.

Again, I can elaborate later, but I have a class in a few minutes.
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:04 AM #8
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Originally Posted by graysonp View Post
I think that argument is fundamentally flawed. I'll elaborate more when I get back from class.

The argument for marijuana does not account for other factors that are relevant to the decision. What about people driving under the influence of the drug?

The same goes for prostitution. Teenage sex rates and pregnancies aren't the only indicators of whether prostitution is better off legal or no. It also doesn't show any correlation that teen pregnancies are lower BECAUSE of legalized prostitution.

Again, I can elaborate later, but I have a class in a few minutes.
You are correct about legalization of prostitution and no having a true correlation between teenage pregnancy. It has to do with our perceived opinions many Americans have of the Netherlands. The fact that sex and drugs are so widely available there, yet the people of the Netherlands do both of them at a lower rate then Americans is very interesting to me.

And I don't really want to turn this into a legalize vs criminalize marijuana thread because we already have plenty of those.
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:16 AM #9
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Originally Posted by graysonp View Post
I think that argument is fundamentally flawed.
I agree. It is.

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The argument for marijuana does not account for other factors that are relevant to the decision. What about people driving under the influence of the drug?
This will most certainly elicit some "I can drive when I'm high" or "it's better than if you're drunk" arguements. I'll decline to comment on it since I've never seen any numbers on DUI of marijuana.

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The same goes for prostitution. Teenage sex rates and pregnancies aren't the only indicators of whether prostitution is better off legal or no. It also doesn't show any correlation that teen pregnancies are lower BECAUSE of legalized prostitution.
That's certainly true. What I think it does show, however, is that legalizing prostitution does not lead down some slippery slope that ends in a sex-crazed society.
I think their encouraging early sex education is probably a better reason for the teen pregnancy results. That's just my opinion, but I'd wager there are statistics to back that claim.

In my opinion, the trends you see when comparing the Dutch (smell like cabbage!) and Americans, are due to a larger cultural difference. We simply seem to treat sex as a taboo in some ways, and as the ultimate goal in others. I believe countries that show trends like the Dutch are simply more mature about sex and human desire.
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:59 AM #10
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Originally Posted by tonysk83 View Post

So why do we continue to support our failing social policies in the U.S.? Why don't we promote better early childhood education? Why don't we look at our neighbor across the sea and take some hints?
For marijuana, that's an easy one. It's on old, out-dated, blatantly racist law. Weed was the black man's drug of choice. Made that ole time Jazz sound a lot better. Mexicans were smoking it too. During the depression, the white man needed his crappy jobs back to make ends meet. Lock up the N****rs and S***s and suddenly all sorts of jobs are available.

Why else would the government scare its own people by claiming marijuana will make you go insane and kill people? What is the purpose in conducting no investigation on the drug, and simply lying to the public about it?

To spread fear and panic.

The drug Czar at the time, Aslinger (I like to call him ***-Slinger) was challenged by the mayor of NYC, LaGuardia, in regards to the lies they were spreading.

To read the sociological conclusions in regards to the LaGuardia commission Report, click here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaGuardia_Commission
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:28 AM #11
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I was just in Amsterdam for spring break. First of all I highly recommend it to everyone- the first chance you get you should try to go to there, its an amazing city, and I would say that even if you refused to smoke pot.

But as to the Dutch, they just have a much more MATURE culture than us. I turn on Fox News and sometimes even CNN and am just embarrassed at the news coverage, embarrassed at what gets outrage and what passes for mainstream news in America (thank god for my Economist subscription). In comparison, Dutch people, old Dutch people, Dutch businesspeople on their lunch break, Dutch families with their young kids, etc, will just walk in the old city right past sex shops with giant dildos in the window, right past prostitutes in windows, right past coffeeshops with people smoking at tables outside, etc. They just pass by like its no big deal. Because IT IS NO BIG DEAL.

Its not like its a seedy town with a lot of crime and crumbling buildings AT ALL. Its pretty much the exact opposite. The "old city", which is the geographic, shopping, cultural, and business center of Amsterdam, pretty much looks like a more northern Venice. Its built around concentric rings of canals, all the buildings are a few hundred years old and have gorgeous architecture, there are several massive public squares that have massive historic buildings from the Dutch Gilded Age built around them and massive beautiful monuments in the middle. There is no trash anywhere, and there are street cleaning teams everywhere, which I guess is how they keep things so clean. Everything is a short walk away, and everything is intermixed. Its not like coffeeshops and smartshops (where you can buy mushrooms and different herbal products) are in one cordoned off area away from everywhere else, you can hardly walk a block in all of the old city without passing one. Similar for the red light district, yeah it is mostly contained in one area, but that one area pretty much directly in the center of the old city and a 5 minute walk from the main train station in amsterdam.

And its not a big deal. Because in the end, Dutch people hardly smoke marijuana, its mostly for the tourists, and in that regard its much safer than alcohol. Similar view for mushrooms: they're relatively safe, why criminalize them and make it more dangerous for people to get them. Same for prostitutes: they bring in money, they bring in tourists from all over the world, and if they can abate just a few rapes a year, arent they worth being legal? They also have methadone trucks that give away free methadone to all the junkies so even though you definitely see some junkies around, theres still no crime.
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:21 AM #12
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This is a pretty stupid thread. Anybody can hand pick a couple of polls to try and make a point. I could take the Marijuana poll you did and point out that in Japan, where use of Marijuana is illegal it is only use by .5% of the population. This clearly shows that there are FAR more factors involved than "whether or not it's legal".

I'm not particularly for or against Marijuana and Legalized Prostitution - I guess instinctively I feel like it's a bad idea but I haven't really given it much through or research due to the fact that I feel there are a lot more important issues that we could be working on right now, but making threads like this and cherry picking a few numbers to paint your own picture of reality is a joke.
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:38 AM #13
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but making threads like this and cherry picking a few numbers to paint your own picture of reality is a joke.
You know what else is a joke? Our leaders feeding lies to the public. Our leaders locking up non-violent offenders and ruining their records and their lives, soley based on a racist law.

Because you're not a smoker, this issue doesn't affect you. That doesn't mean it's not important.

The REALITY you speak of is this:

We lock up more citizens then communist China and Russia. 1 out of every 100 Americans are behind bars as of 2008. Half the prison population are non-violent offenders.

And that's no joke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons..._United_States
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:39 AM #14
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Originally Posted by Swerve22 View Post
This is a pretty stupid thread. Anybody can hand pick a couple of polls to try and make a point. I could take the Marijuana poll you did and point out that in Japan, where use of Marijuana is illegal it is only use by .5% of the population. This clearly shows that there are FAR more factors involved than "whether or not it's legal".

I'm not particularly for or against Marijuana and Legalized Prostitution - I guess instinctively I feel like it's a bad idea but I haven't really given it much through or research due to the fact that I feel there are a lot more important issues that we could be working on right now, but making threads like this and cherry picking a few numbers to paint your own picture of reality is a joke.
Way to miss the point, give yourself a round of applause.

The POINT here is that this poll clearly refutes the notion that legalizing these activities will automatically lead to widespread rates of "moral corruption" or incidences of drug useage.

It DOES NOT mean

-Legalizing these activities will reduce their rate of occurance
-Criminalizing these activities will 'cause an increase in their rate of occurance

If you want to make any sense of any kind of data, you need to learn how to properly draw a conclusion from statistics. There is not one single study you (Swerve) can find in the entire world that will refute what this study shows, which is that "Legalization of marijuana and prostitution on their own do not automatically cause a high occurance of the activities measured by this study". Try and cherry pick all you want, the hypothesis doesn't hold.

You guys should really know how to do this...
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:50 AM #15
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We lock up more citizens then communist China and Russia. 1 out of every 100 Americans are behind bars as of 2008. Half the prison population are non-violent offenders.
I'm not sure what you're trying to imply about imprisonment rates, this really supports our actual law enforcement being more effective. Should we only imprison nonviolent offenders? I agree with Swerve in that drugs and prostitution control really do vary from society to society, so its difficult to predict if the effects of decriminalization of either will really have the same effect on the United States. Those poll numbers may be real, but they don't support a thesis that decriminalizing marijuana/sex for hire will reduce crime here. Here's a good source that actually looks at the numbers from a socio-economic perspective. I thought it was the most realistic analysis of what may happen if we had the same laws used by the dutch.

Bretteville-Jensen, A. (2006). To legalize or not to legalize? Economic approaches to the decriminalization of drugs. Substance Use & Misuse, 41, 555-565.

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Old 03-26-2008, 11:11 AM #16
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Way to miss the point, give yourself a round of applause.

The POINT here is that this poll clearly refutes the notion that legalizing these activities will automatically lead to widespread rates of "moral corruption" or incidences of drug useage.
However it doesn't promote in the least the notion that legalization of those activities would actually be good in any way for society, or refute the idea that they would not be detrimental to society in a number of various ways. Also, like I said in my original post there is much more factors aside from just whether or not it is "legal" that determine whether or not it would lead to "widespread rates of moral corruption". Take firearms for example - legalizing fully automatic concealed firearms with no license nor background checks in inner city New York would have a far different effect from doing the same thing in say...rural Wyoming. Yet somebody like Tony will come along quoting Wyoming's lack of complete societal breakdown and say "that proves it" just like he did about Marijuana and prostitution in this thread.
Quote:
If you want to make any sense of any kind of data, you need to learn how to properly draw a conclusion from statistics. There is not one single study you (Swerve) can find in the entire world that will refute what this study shows, which is that "Legalization of marijuana and prostitution on their own do not automatically cause a high occurance of the activities measured by this study". Try and cherry pick all you want, the hypothesis doesn't hold.
I don't have a hypothesis, I've already pointed out that I don't have a fully formed or even substantial opinion on the subject. It's just annoying to see people cherry picking facts about as subject with many, many complex factors other than "it's legal" and "it's not legal"
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:12 AM #17
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Did you guys see on the last Real Time with Bill Maher a democratic congressman from Massachussetts said that he was sponsoring a federal marijuana decriminalization bill for the coming session? ****, if that has any chance I want to get involved in getting it passed.
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:16 AM #18
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I'm not sure what you're trying to imply about imprisonment rates, this really supports our actual law enforcement being more effective. Should we only imprison nonviolent offenders? I agree with Swerve in that drugs and prostitution control really do vary from society to society, so its difficult to predict if the effects of decriminalization of either will really have the same effect on the United States. Those poll numbers may be real, but they don't support a thesis that decriminalizing marijuana/sex for hire will reduce crime here. Here's a good source that actually looks at the numbers from a socio-economic perspective. I thought it was the most realistic analysis of what may happen if we had the same laws used by the dutch.

Bretteville-Jensen, A. (2006). To legalize or not to legalize? Economic approaches to the decriminalization of drugs. Substance Use & Misuse, 41, 555-565.
Really, the only thing I was implying is that the freest nation in the world incidently has the highest incarceration rate in the world. And while you and I sit and have fun with statistics, numbers, and what have you, real people are suffering from these idiotic and racist laws designed to oppress.
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:20 AM #19
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I don't know, it seems like we're getting a little to far into the tinfoil hat zone when we start talking about Marijuana laws being specifically designed as a way to get Black people into prison. Cally me crazy...
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:26 AM #20
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I don't know, it seems like we're getting a little to far into the tinfoil hat zone when we start talking about Marijuana laws being specifically designed as a way to get Black people into prison. Cally me crazy...
Really? To me, not letting blacks drink out of the same water foutains as whites sounded absolutely crazy.

But it was true .
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:26 AM #21
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I don't know, it seems like we're getting a little to far into the tinfoil hat zone when we start talking about Marijuana laws being specifically designed as a way to get Black people into prison. Cally me crazy...
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