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Old 03-30-2008, 01:52 AM #127
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Originally Posted by rkwhoooooo View Post
Mentally warped, eh? I don't remember talking about the origins of anything. In fact I didn't attribute coffee in any shape way or form to the U.S. I was simply pointing out that we're the only country that would Americanize to the extent of putting a STARBUCKS in one of the most old and historically rich cities in the world. It's just so...taboo.
So the united states government put a starbucks there?
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Calling someone warped when you yourself believe a prophet was born in NY is slightly ironic.
I'm sure I could mock your beliefs too if you put them on the table for everybody to see...or maybe I would choose to be the mature one and not bring up completely unrelated and bigoted arguments and instead stick to debating the topic of the thread...
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:27 AM #128
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If I decided you were worth the time, I'd find a source you could accept. Regardless, for you to simply throw it out as if it was all opinion (like your post...) then you merely confirmed my original thoughts.

And I have read the Koran. I'd hope since you've been over to Islamic countries you'd realize how much of a theocratic environment it is. They're day to day lives are ruled by their religious beliefs. So a holy book does indeed have a lot of pull on how their society runs.
If I decided you were worth the time? What the **** is that supposed to mean? The whole point of this forum is opinion... You think that just because equality among sexes is a religious tenet of islam that they practice it that way, but the opposite is the reality. The qa'ran also says muslims shouldn't drink or smoke - and a lot of them do. I can't believe someone could be that naive. Since you've decided to revert to baseless personal attacks on nearly everyone in this thread, I'm not even going to say anything anymore. Here's one for you: stay away from bull**** sources (wikipedia), and learn the difference between "their" and "they're". Your attacks on people's beliefs have no place here, and only show how ignorant you are of them. Is someone's belief that Joseph Smith found gold plates in New York any more ridiculous than the claim of Catholics that Christ rose from the dead? no. And this is not the place for that discussion anyways.
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Old 03-30-2008, 12:04 PM #129
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If I decided you were worth the time? What the **** is that supposed to mean? The whole point of this forum is opinion... You think that just because equality among sexes is a religious tenet of islam that they practice it that way, but the opposite is the reality. The qa'ran also says muslims shouldn't drink or smoke - and a lot of them do. I can't believe someone could be that naive. Since you've decided to revert to baseless personal attacks on nearly everyone in this thread, I'm not even going to say anything anymore. Here's one for you: stay away from bull**** sources (wikipedia), and learn the difference between "their" and "they're". Your attacks on people's beliefs have no place here, and only show how ignorant you are of them. Is someone's belief that Joseph Smith found gold plates in New York any more ridiculous than the claim of Catholics that Christ rose from the dead? no. And this is not the place for that discussion anyways.

Thanks for the lecture, Mom. But when one insults another, you can't expect nothing. I really don't know WHY religion is a "hands off" subject. He said MY reasoning was warped, but I dare anyone who believes in supernaturalism to read The God Delusion, or something similar. I digress.

I apologize for the typo. I was unaware this was simultaneously the Type-Perfectly sub-forum. I'll work on that. I digress once more.

In reference to your comment towards Islam, I really don't know what to say. Their society is governed by their beliefs and if you were to ask any of them, they'd say women are "better" than men. Now that doesn't mean they're treated the same over here - god forbid a society acts different and has different morals than we do!



And Swerve, my comments were simply directed to our society as a whole. American ingenuity obviously is not connected to the government, since I wouldn't attribute any of the ideals YOU came up with to our government either. If you REALLY don't see anything wrong with a Starbucks in the FORBIDDEN CITY OF CHINA, well then I guess this is a moot point.
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Old 03-30-2008, 12:53 PM #130
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Thanks for the lecture, Mom. But when one insults another, you can't expect nothing. I really don't know WHY religion is a "hands off" subject. He said MY reasoning was warped, but I dare anyone who believes in supernaturalism to read The God Delusion, or something similar. I digress.
It was you who insulted someone by making fun of their religion. It's not a hands-off subject, but I would expect someone not to make tactless generalizations. Have a little respect for the beliefs of others. And just to prove a point I'm going to go edit the wikipedia section on Islam to make every reference to "Mohammed" say "Mickey Mouse".
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:09 PM #131
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berserker has been there, period. I'll take his word over just about anyone's on this issue.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:06 PM #132
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If you REALLY don't see anything wrong with a Starbucks in the FORBIDDEN CITY OF CHINA, well then I guess this is a moot point.
I don't see a problem with it, period. If the people don't want it there they won't give them their business and it will go under.
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Old 03-30-2008, 11:22 PM #133
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It was you who insulted someone by making fun of their religion. It's not a hands-off subject, but I would expect someone not to make tactless generalizations. Have a little respect for the beliefs of others. And just to prove a point I'm going to go edit the wikipedia section on Islam to make every reference to "Mohammed" say "Mickey Mouse".
You just made my day.
I lol'd. while saying, do it do it!
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Old 03-31-2008, 12:20 AM #134
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The money we are spending in Iraq is all deficit spending, so we really won't be gaining any money by pulling out, we'd just be going into less debt (but still going into debt). Our situation right now is very bad fiscally and economically.
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Old 03-31-2008, 10:29 AM #135
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So why aren't you in Afganistan fighting then? You've stated you believe in it yet you won't sign up to go over there and help out? Who are you to agree with sending all those soldiers over there to get shot at, blown up, and die while you sit at home comfortably in your chair posting about it on PBN like some kind of authority on the matter?

If the argument works against those who believe in what we're doing in Iraq then it certainly better work equally against those of us such as yourself who like to "play god" in afghanistan, wouldn't you say?

OR, instead of trying to use bumper sticker emotional arguments you could look at the reality of what's actually goin on over there and make an educated decision about what the best course of action from the present onwards (not 5 years ago) currently is. You apparently seem incapable of making such a decision, and would rather talk about "what if" and "but if we hadn't of...". This is why nobody is really taking you seriously in this thread.
Please stop comparing Afganistan to Iraq. It makes you look foolish. 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq. Stop comparing the two. You are worse than Goebels, ya little spinster.
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Old 03-31-2008, 10:59 AM #136
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Please, before I write this out, do not flame. Do not bash another's opinion, and just settle down. This is my opinion, I'm not asking for you to agree with me, I just want to know if anyone agrees with the way I'm thinking. Please, by all means, post your own opinions, but in a MATURE way (I know that might be hard for many 'nation users)

Ok, I am a High School Senior in Ohio. I have recieved an Army ROTC scholarship for 4 years (full tuition) and will be an Army officer upon graduating from my university. I am opposed to the war in iraq, not because I am against war, the cause, not the death toll, or any other normal reason. For one, I argue that the death toll in Iraq is VERY VERY low, 4,000 in 5 years, thats next to nothing compared to that many soldiers dying per day in previous wars. I oppose the war in Iraq because I believe our dollars are being wasted on the betterment of another country, when our own country needs help itself.

All the billions of dollars we have spent on the war, could we not have somehow used that money to offer cheaper gas to americans. I'm not a liberal, and I don't beleive in giving gas away. But we could severely lower costs by the gov't stepping in, and using their money to cut the costs of gasoline.

Could we not lower taxes? By not spending on the war in Iraq, we could severely cut taxes. Everyone hates taxes, wouldn't that do alot for the morale of the country as a whole? That's killing 2 birds with 1 stone, the majority of americans oppose the war, and who would complain about tax cuts? (This idea alone could possibly secure a re-election for the next president)

That kind've sums up my opinion. I think the money we are spending could be better spent on things that will help us. How can we spend money to make Iraq a better place, when were not happy with life as it is in america. I am not a believer in nat'l healthcare, but couldn't the money from iraq also be put into offsetting the costs of insurance? These are a few suggestions and I'm sure there is a whole host of other ways that money could be used, like taking over canada or mexico (that's a joke, but possible? yes. possibility of that happening, slim to none.)

Just my opinion, post yours.
My time in the army convinced me a number of things.

1 - it doesn't matter WHY were went to war, such questions are irrelevent in the discussion of how to win OR lose a war gracefully.
2 - The political climate combined with vague standards for victory mean we will never "win" the war in Iraq - we are in fact destined for failure.
3 - The fact that people die in war is irrlevent, as is the fact that sometimes people who didn't deserve to die are accidentally/intentionally targeted. War is brutal, and bullets don't discriminate.
4 - Losing the war can be attributed almost entirely to former SECDEF Donald Rumsfeld - who refused to allocate more troops on the ground because they weren't "requested". As a side note, while GEN Casey might not have officially requested more troops I can't think of a single company or batallion commander who wouldn't like to have more men.
5 - Apparently we didn't learn anything from Vietnam.
6 - Going to war in pursuit of national interest is the only reasonable cause for war - don't give me any moral high ground bull****.
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Old 03-31-2008, 03:09 PM #137
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I've never made a thread that has lasted over 7 pages, wow.

My general opinion is that we should deal with ourself, and make our own citizens happy, before we go elsewhere to spend our money and help others. I do not believe that we should have a liability or a need/want to spend our money to better another country.

I do believe that we have made life better for the Iraqi's, noted by the highly increased number of public soccer games in baghdad, a sign that things are changing for the better. I think it will be up to our new president to decide if it is worth the cost.

I'm trying to say that I agree w/ some people's arguments, but not for the same reasons as many do. I don't neccesarily like either parties views on everything. But compromises must be made on everything in politics, we just cant have it all.
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Old 03-31-2008, 10:27 PM #138
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My time in the army convinced me a number of things.

1 - it doesn't matter WHY were went to war, such questions are irrelevent in the discussion of how to win OR lose a war gracefully.
2 - The political climate combined with vague standards for victory mean we will never "win" the war in Iraq - we are in fact destined for failure.
3 - The fact that people die in war is irrlevent, as is the fact that sometimes people who didn't deserve to die are accidentally/intentionally targeted. War is brutal, and bullets don't discriminate.
4 - Losing the war can be attributed almost entirely to former SECDEF Donald Rumsfeld - who refused to allocate more troops on the ground because they weren't "requested". As a side note, while GEN Casey might not have officially requested more troops I can't think of a single company or batallion commander who wouldn't like to have more men.
5 - Apparently we didn't learn anything from Vietnam.
6 - Going to war in pursuit of national interest is the only reasonable cause for war - don't give me any moral high ground bull****.
I'm confused on what conflict you're addressing? The invasion of Iraq? That went stupendously well, Sadam's forces disbanded within weeks! But our current occupation where we're fighting religious ideologies - I don't see how that's winnable regardless of the number of troops...
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:26 AM #139
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I'm confused on what conflict you're addressing? The invasion of Iraq? That went stupendously well, Sadam's forces disbanded within weeks! But our current occupation where we're fighting religious ideologies - I don't see how that's winnable regardless of the number of troops...
The War In Iraq has many stages. We WON the war in a month but we're still there. Having never left I'd say the current troubles are nothing more than an extension of the original invasion.
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Old 04-01-2008, 02:29 PM #140
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We can't win the War in Iraq if it lasts another hundred years. We can train the Iraqi forces to fend for themselves, and keep it the way it is now, so that the iraqi's have better lives. This was a plan supposably being carried out in the next year, if this is true I am all for it.

I read about this plan in Newsweek, about 2-3 weeks ago.

The money we spend in Iraq is not worth the product we are recieving. That is all.
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:04 PM #141
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We can't win the War in Iraq if it lasts another hundred years. We can train the Iraqi forces to fend for themselves, and keep it the way it is now, so that the iraqi's have better lives. This was a plan supposably being carried out in the next year, if this is true I am all for it.

I read about this plan in Newsweek, about 2-3 weeks ago.

The money we spend in Iraq is not worth the product we are recieving. That is all.
Interestingly, Training Iraqi forces was a key focal point for us when I deployed the first time in 2004. It was a primary focal point when I deployed again in 2006. Trouble is in all this time we havn't pumped out that many combat read Iraqi units.
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Old 04-01-2008, 05:21 PM #142
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The transition team (MiTT) mission is on the top of the Army's priority list right now, and they are even using Navy and Air Force personnel to fill the ranks. It involves small teams embedded with IA battallions including various senior personnel in intel/command/tactical etc. to train their Iraqi counterparts. The full effects of this missions should start to kick in towards the end of the current deployment cycle. I think we will see a huge increase in the operational capabilities of the IA. Once they can develop their own intel and run operations, then we can pull most of our combat and support forces out and leave only an advisory force behind.
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Old 04-01-2008, 05:24 PM #143
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That's good news. I think that was a good choice. And realistically, 5 years, 4,000 casualities, doesn't look so bad when you compare it to the brutal statistics of previous wars. I hope we can pull out soon, before I finish ROTC.
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:01 PM #144
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You should hope that the deployments don't end quite so soon. We you get your bars, you are going to find yourself eventually competing for command slots and promotions within your branch. If you are one of the few officers who does not have any combat/deployment experience, it will hurt your career. Especially if you get put into a combat arms branch (which is very likely). Not to mention it is hard to lead a group of NCOs and junior enlisted who have all had 2-3 deployments - you will have to work extra hard to earn their respect.

out.
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:31 PM #145
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You should hope that the deployments don't end quite so soon. We you get your bars, you are going to find yourself eventually competing for command slots and promotions within your branch. If you are one of the few officers who does not have any combat/deployment experience, it will hurt your career. Especially if you get put into a combat arms branch (which is very likely). Not to mention it is hard to lead a group of NCOs and junior enlisted who have all had 2-3 deployments - you will have to work extra hard to earn their respect.

out.
Nothing pissed me off more than our brand spankin' new Lieutenant on our second deployment telling us (who had all deployed at least once) how things work "over there". His credability was completely shot from the get go and he did nothing to build it with us.
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Old 04-02-2008, 02:26 PM #146
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I think we will see a huge increase in the operational capabilities of the IA. Once they can develop their own intel and run operations, then we can pull most of our combat and support forces out and leave only an advisory force behind.
Keeping in mind that the US is paying off 80,000 Sahwa members who were just a few months ago planting IEDs and killing Iraqi/American forces, I think the outlook is pretty bleak for what happens after that money stops flowing
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