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Old 03-19-2008, 03:55 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graysonp View Post
You're both talking about 2 different things. He's saying that defense was 19% of the Federal governments total budget. You're saying that defense is only about 3-4% of the GDP. Both are accurate numbers.
thanks. the gdp number is misleading because of the manner that the gdp is calculated:

GDP = consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports), or, GDP = C + I + G + (X-M)

denfense spending/gdp = %

however, the defense spending is reflected in both the numerator and denominator, so the more or less you spend on defense isn't reflected as strongly. you could spend twice as much on defense and it would only be reflected as a few percentage points of the gdp.

for example in 1998 we spent 270.3 billon on defense, with was roughly 3% of our gdp. in 2007 we spent 549.2 billion which is 4% of our gdp. that's a 203% increase, but is only reflected as a 1% change of the gdp.

http://www.cbo.gov/budget/historical.shtml
http://www.heritage.org/research/fea...harts_s/s7.cfm

Last edited by jshaft37 : 03-19-2008 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:55 PM #23
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Geez, I have never seen so many people whining over the budget and everyone giving different numbers.

Here is the fact of the matter, we have spent 500 billion in Iraq, and what have we accomplished? Nothing that is worth 500 billion dollars to me and a lot of the American public. That was 500 billion dollars that should of never been spent in the first place. Instead of saying well we could of spent that money on domestic programs, how about not spending it at all and lowering our taxes?

Yeah, sounds good to me.

Iraq has been and will be a mess. It will go down in history as Vietnam number 2. Now it is up to the American public to prevent Vietnam number 3 from happening in the future.
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:07 PM #24
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Originally Posted by Murph1329 View Post
OHHHH ok so right now we're putting just enough into defense spending to put a minimal amount of pressure on terrorist. So, now we need to slowly decrease the amount until we're totally ineffective.

y'all think this would be a good idea?
Actually I think it's a grand idea. The problem with fighting "terrorists" is the same problem you experience fighting any asymetric war. Your enemy, though small and weak has a number of inherit advantages at their disposal. Being a small force means it's incredibly easy to hide your troops. Having a small force means your can radically change your equipment and tactics on short notice at a relatively low price.

If you are going to fight an opponent well versed in asymetric warfare techniques with a conventional military you cannot simply fight the people doing the fighting - you have to fight everyone you THINK might be helping them fight. A conventional army is a hammer - it's used to smash things without regard or precision. This would be similar to trying to treat metastacised cancer using a chainsaw as your primary surgical instrument - it may work but you're going to create a terrible mess.

If you instead confront the same opponent using similar techniques you achieve a better result. To "win" the war on terror we can't rely on the sheer firepower our military can produce - it's irrelevent. Instead we need to expend more money on OUR asymetric forces - Special Forces, Recon, Seals and the like. Increase the manpower and budget for the various special forces groups dramatically giving us a large pool of highly qualified precision warfighters. Focus more effort on the non-technical intelligence gathering and analysis methods - we are after all fighting a relatively low tech enemy. Instead of kicking down the door of every terrorist harboring country, send in your special forces units to quietly and cleanly remove the threat.

Sure these changes cost money, but it's a HELL of a lot cheaper to equip and train a few thousand men than it is to equip and train entire armies.
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:29 PM #25
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Originally Posted by jshaft37 View Post
thanks. the gdp number is misleading because of the manner that the gdp is calculated:

GDP = consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports), or, GDP = C + I + G + (X-M)

denfense spending/gdp = %

however, the defense spending is reflected in both the numerator and denominator, so the more or less you spend on defense isn't reflected as strongly. you could spend twice as much on defense and it would only be reflected as a few percentage points of the gdp.

for example in 1998 we spent 270.3 billon on defense, with was roughly 3% of our gdp. in 2007 we spent 549.2 billion which is 4% of our gdp. that's a 203% increase, but is only reflected as a 1% change of the gdp.

http://www.cbo.gov/budget/historical.shtml
http://www.heritage.org/research/fea...harts_s/s7.cfm

yes you're right but you can agree that 19% is still VERY VERY low when you look at total government spending for past wars.
I've already done the math and i'll let y'all do it was well

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/index.php#usgs302
GREAT GREAT website
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:30 PM #26
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I was never good at math, but basically what you're saying is "it's worth it".

Ok.
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:35 PM #27
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I was never good at math, but basically what you're saying is "it's worth it".

Ok.
haha I'm not sure if it's worth it, only history can dictate that
but I will say it's a DAMN good deal to fight a war...think of it like the dollar menu
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:51 PM #28
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It's 500 billion dollars that we could invest elsewhere, especially domestically:

1) education
2) energy independence
3) infrastructure
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:54 PM #29
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So where are the WMD's again?
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:57 PM #30
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So where are the WMD's again?
We obviously just haven't found them yet, or Syria has them and are hiding them.

Get with the program.
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Old 03-19-2008, 07:58 PM #31
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So where are the WMD's again?
Found in a bunch of small caches.
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Old 03-19-2008, 08:00 PM #32
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Found in a bunch of small caches.
Care to provide a source?

And Im really doubting this will be anything other than crap aluminum tubes which have been proven to not be able to deliver any type of WMD. That is if that is the example I think you are talking about. Seriously, if we found them don't you think Bush would be parading them down the streets of DC to show that he had a legit reason for invading Iraq?

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Old 03-19-2008, 08:19 PM #33
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Care to provide a source?

And Im really doubting this will be anything other than crap aluminum tubes which have been proven to not be able to deliver any type of WMD. That is if that is the example I think you are talking about. Seriously, if we found them don't you think Bush would be parading them down the streets of DC to show that he had a legit reason for invading Iraq?
Myself and others have, numerous times.
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Old 03-19-2008, 08:23 PM #34
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Myself and others have, numerous times.
Ok so basically you have no source and are talking out of your ***? Come on dude, you can't say this war was justified or that we have any reason to be there just admit it. If I make a mistake I can admit it, it's alright it's not like you're Bush and sent them there.
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Old 03-19-2008, 09:16 PM #35
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Ok so basically you have no source and are talking out of your ***? Come on dude, you can't say this war was justified or that we have any reason to be there just admit it. If I make a mistake I can admit it, it's alright it's not like you're Bush and sent them there.
yeah getting an evil dictator out of office that openly practiced genocide on the kurds wasn't a good reason...i thought liberals were for human rights?

BTW we had more US soldiers stationed in Germany after WW2 than we currently have in Iraq
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Old 03-19-2008, 09:26 PM #36
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We also werent actively fighting the Nazis after WW2..also the US govt didnt do anything like invade Iraq when the genocide of the Kurds was actually going on in the 1980's and early 90's NOT in March of 2003. And its not a liberal vs. conservative argument, its about accountablilty, support of a war is neither a liberal nor a conservative idea. You can try again if you want.
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Old 03-19-2008, 09:34 PM #37
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I mean the money is a big issue and all, but I don't see why more people aren't worried about the fact that people are being killed over there. I think US troops being killed needlessly is a more important reason to withdraw from Iraq than the money aspect. But whatever the reason that we get or troops out of there, doesn't matter to me but the sooner the better.

Edit and the whole reason we fought the germans was because they posed a threat to us, after the british we were next on their list, the genocide was a secondary reason. It's not our job to police the world, maybe lend a bit of help to our allies when we can, but we are already in debt and don't need to try and fix everything that is wrong with the world because there is always going to be something wrong after this, there is going to be some other group of people that we just "need" go to war against and then another and then another.

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Old 03-19-2008, 09:44 PM #38
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We also werent actively fighting the Nazis after WW2..also the US govt didnt do anything like invade Iraq when the genocide of the Kurds was actually going on in the 1980's and early 90's NOT in March of 2003. And its not a liberal vs. conservative argument, its about accountablilty, support of a war is neither a liberal nor a conservative idea. You can try again if you want.
i wasn't aware that there was a statute of limitations on genocide

damn i'm just full of win aren't i
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Old 03-19-2008, 09:45 PM #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph1329 View Post
yeah getting an evil dictator out of office that openly practiced genocide on the kurds wasn't a good reason...i thought liberals were for human rights?

BTW we had more US soldiers stationed in Germany after WW2 than we currently have in Iraq
Be careful where you point your finger for fault.

Sure, Saddam killed thousands of separatist Kurds, and he practiced a totalitarian society, but things generally were safe as long as you did not say bad things about Saddam or the Baath party.


The coalition went into Iraq and beat Saddam's army quickly, but through faulty planning they created a setting where terrorism and crime could rampantly ravage the Iraqi people. Thousands upon thousands of Iraqi's have died due to the influx of terror due to the power vacuum created by our terrible actions.

At least before you could feel safe knowing that if your kept your mouth shut you were fine. Now in Iraq you are constantly in fear of death as there is no security.

We had more troops in Germany after the war for a whole series of issues as well. A 12 million man military and the threat of an extremely large force in the form of the CCCP against our foreign markets was reason enough to station so many troops there at the time.

I'm allergic to bull****, please stop, it's annoying.
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Old 03-19-2008, 09:46 PM #40
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i wasn't aware that there was a statute of limitations on genocide

damn i'm just full of win aren't i
Your'e full of not being able to take part in a decent debate moron. Please go back to the ST girlfriend advice thread or something. You took your stab at ST: P, you failed miserably in multiple threads, now leave.

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Old 03-20-2008, 12:36 AM #41
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Found in a bunch of small caches.
are you talking about the Mustard gas that has degraded?

did they ever find Serin, VX, Anthrax, and the like?
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:53 AM #42
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Another day in Iraq, another dollar into the pocket of a War Profiteer/Military Industrialist's pocket.
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