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Old 04-18-2008, 11:27 AM #85
Sean@smartpartswest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainspaulding View Post
"An Electronic Paintball marker was new and novel in 1996."

but selling a marker in "kit form in 2008 is not and hasn't been since the nelson challenger in the 80s

nor is running air through the gripframe

"Hence, the patent was granted. Patents are not given out like candy. It takes years for them to go through. During this time, ANYONE can file a claim against it. Then that claim is investigated."

in 1996 the industry was Very young, and not all of the bussiness owners at the time had an attorny for a parent.


"And yes, I do believe patents force innovation. They force people to come up with more than 1 way to fire a solenoid, or a paintball... etc etc."

a patent that is not overly broad will in fact force inovation. I am not arguing that, however I defy you or any one to relibly fire an electronic solenoid without a way to remove and apply voltage..... a switch.
Yes, in 1996... you are probably correct. But it can take 2-4 years for a patent to go through. And when the patent was added to, everyone in the industry knew about it, hence they had time to file claims against it. As far as the kit patent goes... yes. You are correct that people can call up and have a gun assembled as a kit. This is different. It is more like an erector set where one can buy the kit and build it themselves. Which is totally different.

As far as a switch goes to activate a solenoid, do you have to use a swicth and solenoid?? That is why they call it innovation Come up with a NEW way to do it. Most companies are driven on design, like Dye. We are driven on engineering.

As far as the gripframe air passage, there is more to it then air passing through a frame. It how it it goes through the frame, body, to the reg, and back out again.
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Old 04-18-2008, 11:27 AM #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
1. AGD is in business. They chose not to make the E-Mag anymore.
2. AKA is in business. They chose not their guns anymore.

Both due to the fact that we sent them a letter about our patent. AGD did not even bother and gave up. AKA put up a little fight and gave up. But what it comes down to is that they both decided not to make them anymore. All they had to do was pay a small royalty fee, which really would not have changed much.

The only people I am aware of that Smart Parts has ever had a lawsuit with are Dye, ICD, and WDP. The WDP and DYE were counter suits from them coming after us. ICD was a different story all together. I hope that clears up issues a bit about us suing everyone. Because it is untrue.
You say small royalty fee, and later in this thread you make mention of $25 per gun. Is your company ever going to come out and say exactally what you demand others pay, at least as a base negoicating start point?

Over on AO the rabid horde of AGD fans have asked Tom Kaye details about the fee to continue producing an innovative product. (Even Billy and Adam must admit the E-mag/X-mag solinoid and sear assembly is innovative it is the only marker I know of that can go for electronic to mech with the flip of a switch mid use) Tom has remained silent despite our persistance, not even answering if it is a flat fee for a year/model or per unit, or a combination of the two.

Many people might not feel like smart parts is a cancer in the industry if you just disclosed information instead of this cloak and dagger work. Especially with the "dead" companies in the wake of Smart Part's seemingly iron fisted "diplomacy".

This is the information age, and I demand information. Until that demand is met I will never purchase a Smart Parts product on that principal alone. I already go so far that if I am going to buy electronic components for a marker I do it second hand so I am not directly funneling money into your questionably vaild licence fee.

--------------

You also speak of how this "package patent" is possibly for international sales. I see an oppertunity for a quick buck if this patent does get through, I hope not as there is mountians of "prior art" with selling things in parts in the industry. I do not believe that Adam and Billy can restrain themselves from chasing that quick buck and letting the industry seize in their wake.

--------------

I have nothing against your equipment...directly, but I have a lot of issues with the pratices and ethics that are chosen by the company. Money over all and screw everyone else only leaves us, then end users, with less in our pockets and a bitter taste in our mouths.

--------------

To end on a joke which I think is good pratice especially when feelings could be hurt. I still find it hillarious that the smart parts factory team "the all americans" use equipment made my smart parts....in china. You really should add "made in china" to the bottom of the all americans logo.
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Old 04-18-2008, 11:31 AM #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
alarmist perhaps, but that doesn't mean im wrong. and i sure as heck would love to see adam and billy defend this one. they clearly told me that they can already stop any illegal/3rd party manufactured parts from entering the country, so this is not that benign. they also claimed that without SP patents china would be making all of our paintball guns, which i told them was garbage becuase china does not have IP laws or patents, and respects no countries IP laws.

seriously, now we have gone beyond patenting the legs on the chair, to patenting the idea of selling a chair.

how do you do that exactly? doesn't that just seem wrong to you?

sean, your are easily the best hire SP has made in the last 10 years, no joke. you put a face on SP that is hard to dislike. and the lessons i learned at CPX the other weekend was that everyone at smart parts are great poeple, a great company, but at its core ... SP is not what it seems. my dislike, my "hater" has been re targeted, not at smart parts in general, but at its core.

I must have missed this one. Yes, you can patent a leg on a chair. Or even the idea of selling it as well. It is intellectual property. We live in a capalist enviornment that is run by lawyers. Also, in a capitalist society, one must innovate and adapt. That is how you survive. I even have a friend who has a patent on the idea of how to market a product. Which he gets paid royalties for near 300K a year. Do not be mad at Smart Parts, be mad at the system. It is the system that drives it. Do I think that it is a little ridiculous at times?? Without a friggin doubt. But, unfortunately, that is not the world we live in.
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Old 04-18-2008, 11:43 AM #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
I must have missed this one. Yes, you can patent a leg on a chair. Or even the idea of selling it as well. It is intellectual property. We live in a capalist enviornment that is run by lawyers. Also, in a capitalist society, one must innovate and adapt. That is how you survive. I even have a friend who has a patent on the idea of how to market a product. Which he gets paid royalties for near 300K a year. Do not be mad at Smart Parts, be mad at the system. It is the system that drives it. Do I think that it is a little ridiculous at times?? Without a friggin doubt. But, unfortunately, that is not the world we live in.

SOOOO don't be mad at smartparts for taking advantage of whats wrong with the system. be mad at the system....

how about being mad at both

yes the system sucks.... but does SP have to exploit the areas that suck at every turn no matter what the cost?
in the short run it is paying off to be cutthroat, in the long run, who knows

like I told Bill I hope Karma is real and a real *****
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Old 04-18-2008, 11:45 AM #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxcim View Post
You say small royalty fee, and later in this thread you make mention of $25 per gun. Is your company ever going to come out and say exactally what you demand others pay, at least as a base negoicating start point?

Over on AO the rabid horde of AGD fans have asked Tom Kaye details about the fee to continue producing an innovative product. (Even Billy and Adam must admit the E-mag/X-mag solinoid and sear assembly is innovative it is the only marker I know of that can go for electronic to mech with the flip of a switch mid use) Tom has remained silent despite our persistance, not even answering if it is a flat fee for a year/model or per unit, or a combination of the two.

Many people might not feel like smart parts is a cancer in the industry if you just disclosed information instead of this cloak and dagger work. Especially with the "dead" companies in the wake of Smart Part's seemingly iron fisted "diplomacy".

This is the information age, and I demand information. Until that demand is met I will never purchase a Smart Parts product on that principal alone. I already go so far that if I am going to buy electronic components for a marker I do it second hand so I am not directly funneling money into your questionably vaild licence fee.

--------------

You also speak of how this "package patent" is possibly for international sales. I see an oppertunity for a quick buck if this patent does get through, I hope not as there is mountians of "prior art" with selling things in parts in the industry. I do not believe that Adam and Billy can restrain themselves from chasing that quick buck and letting the industry seize in their wake.

--------------

I have nothing against your equipment...directly, but I have a lot of issues with the pratices and ethics that are chosen by the company. Money over all and screw everyone else only leaves us, then end users, with less in our pockets and a bitter taste in our mouths.

--------------

To end on a joke which I think is good pratice especially when feelings could be hurt. I still find it hillarious that the smart parts factory team "the all americans" use equipment made my smart parts....in china. You really should add "made in china" to the bottom of the all americans logo.
Can I comment on the exact amount? No. Can I at least guide you on what I say without getting in trouble or Smart Parts in trouble? Yes. There are non-disclosure agreements signed. It is either a flat fee for the year, or a per gun amount I believe. Do I think that the E-Mag is a great product? Yes. Do I think they should bring it back? Without a doubt! Am I AGD Factory Certified? Yes! Tom has remained silent because he does not know. The only thing Smart Parts sent them was a letter explaining the patent of ours. He chose himself to get out of paintball, which he wanted to leave anyways.

About the kit patent. It had nothing to do with international shipping. That was my speculation which I have found to be wrong. It is not an accessory kit to put on to a gun like everyone else is done. It is a build your own gun kit, which the user builds himself. That is it. Nothing more into it.

I agree on you on some of your last statement, being an SP Hater myself in the past. Since I have been here, the company has changed drastically and for the better. That is why I am on these boards (on my own time, I do not get paid to be on here). And that is what I am trying to show everyone. In the past, no one from SP would have even entertained the idea of discussing anything like this in public. When I come across something I do not know, I do some research and also ask Billy.
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Old 04-18-2008, 11:47 AM #90
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Smart Parts didn't put pVI out of business. You can't compare GenE and Diablo selling a patent for a marker they didn't wish to produce, to pVI flopping and leaving their half of the IP unaccounted for.
Smart Parts and pVI jointly develop a product, granted joint ownership over the IP, SP enforces it now that pVI is gone....somehow that's shady and/or unclean?

It's besides the fact that Smart Parts owned a portion and underwent the developments of the patents already. Dye did NOTHING for the development of the Omega patent, yet they serve people the same c&d.
Is Dye wrong for doing that? Of course not! They own the IP and they can do with it what they will. Smart Parts is doing the same thing, under a different piece of IP, the question isn't whether or not it's legal, but rather you agree with the patent in the first place. Personally, I don't. But you don't hear me crying about the royality fee. It's a production cost, nothing more.

Patents are palced to denote the invention of the item. Just because you don't produce it doesn't mean you're not entitled to the rights. Of all the patents Smart Parts has, a little less than half of them are for products that never came out. That's LITERALLY hundreds of thousands of dollars spent with exactly zero return. It goes to show a mere patent doesn't mean it demands any cash back (by selling directly, or royality). There's more to it than that.
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Old 04-18-2008, 11:47 AM #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainspaulding View Post
SOOOO don't be mad at smartparts for taking advantage of whats wrong with the system. be mad at the system....

how about being mad at both

yes the system sucks.... but does SP have to exploit the areas that suck at every turn no matter what the cost?
in the short run it is paying off to be cutthroat, in the long run, who knows

like I told Bill I hope Karma is real and a real *****
It is like this in every industry. You innovate and adapt, or you will be left in the dust. That is the nature of the beast. You can be mad at us all you want, but if we ever meet... we will put back a few beers and have a good time.
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Old 04-18-2008, 11:52 AM #92
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oh, no doubt, you seem like a good guy and we are just on polar ends of this perticular argument.
nothing I say should be taken as an assault on you, just years of anger and frustration pointed at your employers
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:07 PM #93
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Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
Can I comment on the exact amount? No. Can I at least guide you on what I say without getting in trouble or Smart Parts in trouble? Yes. There are non-disclosure agreements signed. It is either a flat fee for the year, or a per gun amount I believe. Do I think that the E-Mag is a great product? Yes. Do I think they should bring it back? Without a doubt! Am I AGD Factory Certified? Yes! Tom has remained silent because he does not know. The only thing Smart Parts sent them was a letter explaining the patent of ours. He chose himself to get out of paintball, which he wanted to leave anyways.

About the kit patent. It had nothing to do with international shipping. That was my speculation which I have found to be wrong. It is not an accessory kit to put on to a gun like everyone else is done. It is a build your own gun kit, which the user builds himself. That is it. Nothing more into it.

I agree on you on some of your last statement, being an SP Hater myself in the past. Since I have been here, the company has changed drastically and for the better. That is why I am on these boards (on my own time, I do not get paid to be on here). And that is what I am trying to show everyone. In the past, no one from SP would have even entertained the idea of discussing anything like this in public. When I come across something I do not know, I do some research and also ask Billy.
I don't believe when people say Tom wanted to leave, and the only times I've heard that statement is from Smart parts employees. If Tom Kaye really wanted to leave and be done he wouldn't continue to lurk and occasionally post on Automags.org when he has nuggets of wisdom to add to discussion. He even posted on a thread yesterday about this thread here. I think he left the industry to try to keep his sanity when all the other companies started litigation wars, as it was not his way. All his innovations are basically free to use...and free to steal because he believed (and I tend to agree) that open source anything leads to better ideas when exchange is unhindered. I still stand by demanding information, even if I know I will never get it. Information is abundant now and trying to hide it, and trying to validate hiding it is...not a good idea. If I can't be an informed consumer then I will stop "consuming" the products with blatently hidden important (to me) information. The cold war is over Mr. Gardner, tear down your wall.

Back onto the Kit patent, it has been common pratice (not as much recently) to "kit" guns for a custom apperence. I have a tendancy to "kit" cockers (and soon mags, maybe an intimidator) for fun. If I buy all my cocker parts from one online retailer that would make them subject to a lawsuit if this patent goes through. As all the parts would come in one box to create a marker, exactally what this patent is for...and prior art exists everywhere, even on the picture thread of the mechincal and electonic cockers section on this web page. This patent is creating a dangerious ground, say Dell does the same thing for computer hardware, how soon would it be before newegg.com or tigerdirect.com are no more due to massive ammounts of lawsuits.

Forgive my scepticism, but once bitten twice shy, and am aware of much of the history of the industry as a whole and I am not happy with the picture in front of me.

I see these moves with a diffrent motive than you do, and it honestly makes me worry about where the industry is alowed to go from here.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:07 PM #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainspaulding View Post
oh, no doubt, you seem like a good guy and we are just on polar ends of this perticular argument.
nothing I say should be taken as an assault on you, just years of anger and frustration pointed at your employers
I know

Like I said. I used to be a hater myself. That way I look at it, the past is past. Somethings I do not agree with what they did, but the company is completely different now than even 2 years ago.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:16 PM #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxcim View Post
I don't believe when people say Tom wanted to leave, and the only times I've heard that statement is from Smart parts employees. If Tom Kaye really wanted to leave and be done he wouldn't continue to lurk and occasionally post on Automags.org when he has nuggets of wisdom to add to discussion. He even posted on a thread yesterday about this thread here. I think he left the industry to try to keep his sanity when all the other companies started litigation wars, as it was not his way. All his innovations are basically free to use...and free to steal because he believed (and I tend to agree) that open source anything leads to better ideas when exchange is unhindered. I still stand by demanding information, even if I know I will never get it. Information is abundant now and trying to hide it, and trying to validate hiding it is...not a good idea. If I can't be an informed consumer then I will stop "consuming" the products with blatently hidden important (to me) information. The cold war is over Mr. Gardner, tear down your wall.

Back onto the Kit patent, it has been common pratice (not as much recently) to "kit" guns for a custom apperence. I have a tendancy to "kit" cockers (and soon mags, maybe an intimidator) for fun. If I buy all my cocker parts from one online retailer that would make them subject to a lawsuit if this patent goes through. As all the parts would come in one box to create a marker, exactally what this patent is for...and prior art exists everywhere, even on the picture thread of the mechincal and electonic cockers section on this web page. This patent is creating a dangerious ground, say Dell does the same thing for computer hardware, how soon would it be before newegg.com or tigerdirect.com are no more due to massive ammounts of lawsuits.

Forgive my scepticism, but once bitten twice shy, and am aware of much of the history of the industry as a whole and I am not happy with the picture in front of me.

I see these moves with a diffrent motive than you do, and it honestly makes me worry about where the industry is alowed to go from here.
Tom even told me years ago at the 1999 Super Show in Atlanta when I worked for KAPP that he wanted to get out of paintball because of the BS. Open source is a little different. You take the computer world. I believe that open source is a good thing. It give a lot of people a chance to work on something better and better. I do not think it applies to paintball well. Look at where AGD is today. That should sum it up. I will have to think on this further.

The kit patent has nothing to do with selling seperate pieces and putting it together yourself. It has to do with everything coming together in a package already for the consumer to buy and build himself. Kind of like an RC car. And I appreciate the skeptism as well.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:49 PM #96
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[quote=Sean@smartpartswest;46710107]Tom even told me years ago at the 1999 Super Show in Atlanta when I worked for KAPP that he wanted to get out of paintball because of the BS. QUOTE]

you have to ask yourself what events transpired to make Tom want to get out because of the BS

I know him from a lot of events. I too am a AGD tech, and the last IAO he went to, you could tell he had no fight left in him. talk about heart breaking

that year we went to the quaker steak and lube and hung out with
Larry, Eileen, Aaron, Pooh and Dan from AKA
Tom and Jon from AGD
Jerry and Reanne (sp) from ICD
Jon from JMJ
Glenn and Craig from Palmers
we were just getting off the ground cutting guns, you want to feel like a TINY fish in a big pond?
we just sat around listening to most of them talk about the way things were, and how they will never be again.
later that year when AKA got hit with the C&D we litteraly had the garage taken apart to get the new milling center in, when we got the call... no more work,with A TON of money in the hole my bussiness partner (and best friend)s relationship fell apart and we went seperate ways. all I ever wanted to do was work in this industry, design my guns, and do somthing every day I enjoy .... its what I went to school for and with the exception of my wife and daughter it has been my life for almost 20 years I had my dream and almost made it, and it cost me more then I want to admit. I am VERY bitter and I think I have a right to be
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Old 04-18-2008, 01:08 PM #97
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Tom even told me years ago at the 1999 Super Show in Atlanta when I worked for KAPP that he wanted to get out of paintball because of the BS. Open source is a little different. You take the computer world. I believe that open source is a good thing. It give a lot of people a chance to work on something better and better. I do not think it applies to paintball well. Look at where AGD is today. That should sum it up. I will have to think on this further.

The kit patent has nothing to do with selling seperate pieces and putting it together yourself. It has to do with everything coming together in a package already for the consumer to buy and build himself. Kind of like an RC car. And I appreciate the skeptism as well.
The open source idea mill, in my opinion, gave birth to the e-spool valve guns to today based in part by the ideas of Tom Kaye. So I think it has some validity. I also work in the IT field so it's what I know and what I can easily realate things to.

The kit patent I'm not going to hold my breath, if it still all gets shipped in one box to my house...and it's worth the lawsuit. I wouldn't be all that supprized if they reach for it.

I will say this to everyone's credit...the last few pages of this thread are supprizing. It's polite discourse about something that could get very dirty very fast. If I do ever meet any of you in person I shall give you a "golf clap" I believe we single handedly raised the maturity level of PbN by at least a few points.
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Old 04-18-2008, 01:32 PM #98
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It is like this in every industry. You innovate and adapt, or you will be left in the dust. That is the nature of the beast. You can be mad at us all you want, but if we ever meet... we will put back a few beers and have a good time.
dont claim smart parts is innovative ...

just dont.

making an ion blind, sticking it in a plastic body and capping the board is not innovative. AKA and AGD were innovative, smart parts is not.

never, ever claim smart parts is innovative.

no, what smart parts has done is end all innovation in paintball. in my talk with billy, he even agreed with that.

and lets not even get into TK. he has cleared the whole thing up, he said that he loved paintball, but when intense cooperation turned to intense competition the politics took all the fun out of paintball. i dont think anyone here would disagree with his assessment.

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Old 04-18-2008, 01:40 PM #99
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Sidebar for a sec - as this thread grows, there may be temptations to rehash things that have already been covered. PLEASE, if you're coming into this thread cold, don't start at the end and just drop a post. READ the thread. Yes, it's long. But really, it's not going to help if it's super-long but 1/3 the content it should be.

This will also be posted to the first page/first post.

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Old 04-18-2008, 02:44 PM #100
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[quote=captainspaulding;46710718]
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Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
Tom even told me years ago at the 1999 Super Show in Atlanta when I worked for KAPP that he wanted to get out of paintball because of the BS. QUOTE]

you have to ask yourself what events transpired to make Tom want to get out because of the BS

I know him from a lot of events. I too am a AGD tech, and the last IAO he went to, you could tell he had no fight left in him. talk about heart breaking

that year we went to the quaker steak and lube and hung out with
Larry, Eileen, Aaron, Pooh and Dan from AKA
Tom and Jon from AGD
Jerry and Reanne (sp) from ICD
Jon from JMJ
Glenn and Craig from Palmers
we were just getting off the ground cutting guns, you want to feel like a TINY fish in a big pond?
we just sat around listening to most of them talk about the way things were, and how they will never be again.
later that year when AKA got hit with the C&D we litteraly had the garage taken apart to get the new milling center in, when we got the call... no more work,with A TON of money in the hole my bussiness partner (and best friend)s relationship fell apart and we went seperate ways. all I ever wanted to do was work in this industry, design my guns, and do somthing every day I enjoy .... its what I went to school for and with the exception of my wife and daughter it has been my life for almost 20 years I had my dream and almost made it, and it cost me more then I want to admit. I am VERY bitter and I think I have a right to be

Assuming all this is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, why didn't you just pay the royalty fee and continue production? Seems like a huge waste of money for something so small and minute.

-X
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:58 PM #101
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[quote=Exilict;46713470]
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Originally Posted by captainspaulding View Post


Assuming all this is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, why didn't you just pay the royalty fee and continue production? Seems like a huge waste of money for something so small and minute.

-X
because the royalty feed takes probably half your profit margin out right there.

thats half the budget for R and D, half the budget for new talent, half the capital you could invest somewhere else.

so it makes no sense to enter this kind of market, because you cannot win.

so all the small innovative companies (like AKA, AM, AGD, PVI, ...) have no reason to even enter the market.

and what do we get for it - as billy put it so well when i asked him and he answered by pointing at the vibe in pump scouts hands. yeah, we get the vibe. thanks!

Last edited by cockerpunk : 04-18-2008 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:26 PM #102
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[quote=Exilict;46713470]
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Originally Posted by captainspaulding View Post


Assuming all this is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, why didn't you just pay the royalty fee and continue production? Seems like a huge waste of money for something so small and minute.

-X
well, its like this

we were a VERY small organization, we had one type marker on the market, one more on the way. the shop was not making money for itself yet, so what I had was a 40 hr per week full time job to pay the bills, and a 50-60 hr week part time job that was a wash (thats how small companies go for a while)
the company we were primarily working with was the one that was hit with the C&D, not us. but it esentialy shut down our supply chain. money got tight friendships got strained (and to my discredit I did a lot of stupid things, not knowing how to handle the situation we were in) we were looking into other companies to partner with and nothing seamed to click. myself and one of our friends had a TON of time into the design of a custom version of a marker from another manufacturer, who switched the base design in right after we had our first prototype cut (wasting more of our dwindling resources) and in the end I gave my half of what we had left to my business partner who I have had maybe three civil conversations with over the last three years.there was not a minute that we were not up against the wall for the three years I was there..... I was in between a best friend/business partner who was gettin desperate and a wife and baby that were begining not to understand 100 work weeks with nothing to show for them. there was too much stacked against us
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:27 PM #103
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Half the margin? Absolutely not.

Do yo have any idea how much it costs to make an E-Mag? Or an Excalibur? Those guns had MASSIVE profit margins, just like a very large number of present-day markers as well.

There's no reason to bring speculation into it. Stop assuming SP is raping every company with royality fees. It's simply not true.
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:31 PM #104
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Half the margin? Absolutely not.

Do yo have any idea how much it costs to make an E-Mag? Or an Excalibur? Those guns had MASSIVE profit margins, just like a very large number of present-day markers as well.

There's no reason to bring speculation into it. Stop assuming SP is raping every company with royality fees. It's simply not true.
half the margin - certainly!

a mid end 400-600 buck gun, maybe 100 bucks profit ... maybe. then you add a nice 20-35 buck fee with every gun, and your screwed. billy flat out told me it was between those numbers, and i know a thing or two about manufacturing.

SP is clearly hindering the little guys in the industry, and thats also something billy flat out told me.

how is this not making sense?
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Old 04-18-2008, 03:34 PM #105
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[quote=cockerpunk;46713827]
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Originally Posted by Exilict View Post

because the royalty feed takes probably half your profit margin out right there.

thats half the budget for R and D, half the budget for new talent, half the capital you could invest somewhere else.

so it makes no sense to enter this kind of market, because you cannot win.

so all the small innovative companies (like AKA, AM, AGD, PVI, ...) have no reason to even enter the market.

and what do we get for it - as billy put it so well when i asked him and he answered by pointing at the vibe in pump scouts hands. yeah, we get the vibe. thanks!

You are making assumptions. That is why we have such hate against Smart Parts, because of assumptions like this. If they only raised the gun $25 on a $1200 or $1400 gun (which is .017%-.020% of the price), it more than likely would have covered any royalities paid. So, you are assuming wrong.


And I think a great gun at a great price IS innovative! $150 electro pneumatic spool valve gun with the dependability and durability of a tippmann? 5 years ago, that would have been laughed at.
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