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Old 04-17-2008, 01:03 PM #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
Well my friend, I am sure there is a reason behind it and when I see Billy, I shall ask him. From what I read, it is for a gun kit basically that is not fully assembled into a full marker. This may have to do with laws governing international shipping. I am sure there is always more to the story. And you my friend always assumes the worst

There are more ways to discuss things in legalities without being alarmist about it. But I won't judge you for that because I actually do like you.
alarmist perhaps, but that doesn't mean im wrong. and i sure as heck would love to see adam and billy defend this one. they clearly told me that they can already stop any illegal/3rd party manufactured parts from entering the country, so this is not that benign. they also claimed that without SP patents china would be making all of our paintball guns, which i told them was garbage becuase china does not have IP laws or patents, and respects no countries IP laws.

seriously, now we have gone beyond patenting the legs on the chair, to patenting the idea of selling a chair.

how do you do that exactly? doesn't that just seem wrong to you?

sean, your are easily the best hire SP has made in the last 10 years, no joke. you put a face on SP that is hard to dislike. and the lessons i learned at CPX the other weekend was that everyone at smart parts are great poeple, a great company, but at its core ... SP is not what it seems. my dislike, my "hater" has been re targeted, not at smart parts in general, but at its core.
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:20 PM #65
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Is it true that SP is sueing INVERT?
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:34 PM #66
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Is it true that SP is sueing INVERT?
no, the gas through grip patent is still in the application process.
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:40 PM #67
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Is it true that SP is sueing INVERT?
No. That was a speculative rumor.

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no, the gas through grip patent is still in the application process.
The mini is done differently than the luxe. So, it is a moot point. There is nothing to "sue" over. The mini does it like a Tippmann Prolite sort of. The luxe has actual air passages milled in the frame and gun.
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:45 PM #68
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Legally, I wonder if there's a distinction between "milled" and "cast". I'm pretty sure my circa-1992 SL-68II has cast-in air passages in the frame.

A slight OT-deviation for a sec... something I've been wondering. Sean, do you have an e-mail alert subscription to this thread?
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:57 PM #69
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not like it matter pump scout - if it has air though the grip, and the patent is approved as it was applied for, it can be used on the mini.

c'mon, you know smart parts better than that scout, they patented the switch, every switch, HES, opto, micro, you name if its a switch and therefor covered.

they can claim otherwise, but there history clearly shows that they dont make that distinction.
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Old 04-17-2008, 04:24 PM #70
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they would probably have a basis for another bs law suit though.


hmmmmm perhaps history is repeating itself?
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:44 AM #71
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c'mon, you know smart parts better than that scout, they patented the switch, every switch, HES, opto, micro, you name if its a switch and therefor covered.
Umm, I dont think thats true. Someone has a Patent applied for on the HES.[For awhile now]
If it gets granted the Mini will have an issue. Thing is till it gets granted you are free to do as you wish with it.
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:27 AM #72
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While I don't condemn your products Sean, Smart Parts produces a great product for its price and from the specs that are available. I've shot a couple of Smart Parts guns (old Evo cockers, shoe box 4x4's, etc...), there is nothing wrong about owning a Smart Parts product. But let me say this in short I'd never own one from your ethics on becoming.

I to come from the business side as well and granted we are in different industries, Smart Parts is Paintball and I'm in the Green Industry. From looking at the business side of it you guys were digging your own grave with that Electro patent fiasco. Being cut throat in business is just that its pretty much black and white, anybody with common sense will tell you that (Demand = Profit). To be cut throat is to not just to corner the market its to make it so you eliminate your competition, not completely eliminate but to the point that its cheaper to not produce product. If you can relate it, My company doesn't expand by just adding another crew, I expand by going after another township forcing out another business to another area. Ex. I service Town A,B,C,D,E but Town F I don't have service in. If I get one job in Town F and service it for a year I'll lose profit, but I show what my company is able to do. To simplify create the demand and it will show you profit. Your company leeched on the demand for Electro Markers, saw the demand and took steps to get a bigger piece of the pie. AGD did not really choose to stop producing the E Mag, Smart Parts indirectly forced them to do so, AGD as you know was a small company (heck almost to the size of family run), they were pretty much stuck in that norm of making pennies on the dollar to stay competitive. Was is AGD's fault for following that practice yes, but its your fault for taking away those pennies for royalties. Which isn't really that wrong, its simply business but that will just end up having worse public relations.

AKA is at fault for being driven into this corner in by themselves, going after WGP. In sense they thought they could take it, but alas they couldn't. They didn't foresee what could have happened. Morally it was the right path for them to go after WGP, but they should have reserved themselves more. Smart Parts saw this weaken condition and exploited it. Furthering Smart Parts in a deeper hole with in the industry.

My Big stink is that like I said above, simply business practice, to me it is that you went after the fathers of the industry. While yes this is business, but those fathers are what brought Smart Parts into this industry. Heck I remember the only marker that was actually produced by Smart Parts was the shocker, you guys just made aftermarket parts back in the mid 90's for AGD, WGP, Sterling, etc. The morals point in a direction of bad public relations, while in my industry if I take over the company that I worked for before I started my own goes unnoticed, but in our industry we respect those that gave us the start, gave us jobs, sub contracted work to us, the list can go on and on for what other companies have done fore me (like Jason letting me borrow a skid loader to complete a job).

Smart Parts have destroyed those ethics and personal industry relations with in this industry. Smart Parts has burned to many bridges, that I'm sure nobody is going to come running to the aid of smart parts if the barn is burning. It might have been a case of bad timing but I can understand thinking that if it was something you came up with to fully protect it but as a company you have to draw the line somewhere in the sand, as a example if I was to patent the rotary lawn mower blade, so that old companies that produce lawn mowers such as John Deere, Scag, Toro, Hustler, etc, etc couldn't anymore with out my permission would be just a very rude practice.
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:35 AM #73
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Working for Smart Parts must be like working for the IRS. Inside, you want to think that you're doing the right thing for those you work for, but what it boils down to is being in a career that involves taking advantage of your own people, benefiting only those you work for.

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Old 04-18-2008, 07:55 AM #74
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Umm, I dont think thats true. Someone has a Patent applied for on the HES.[For awhile now]
If it gets granted the Mini will have an issue. Thing is till it gets granted you are free to do as you wish with it.
HES is a switch, covered under SP patents. there might be other patents, but HES is a switch, and thats all SPs patent needs to apply.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:21 AM #75
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No. That was a speculative rumor.



The mini is done differently than the luxe. So, it is a moot point. There is nothing to "sue" over. The mini does it like a Tippmann Prolite sort of. The luxe has actual air passages milled in the frame and gun.

I have been lurking on here for a bit, but now I have to speak up.

the bushmaster,bko,freestyle,emag,xmag,viking,excal ect (not to mention the designs of marker manufacturers that are currently paying royalties to SP) all did it "differently" then the original shocker, but that didn't seem to matter when the smoke settled did it?

you say the patents are going to "stablize the industry"
how?
by weeding out the small upstart companys?
by choking technology with over the top over broad patents?
I will give it to you that from Bill and Adams end of things it must make everything look pretty rosey.

you say patents breed inovation, this is true unless there is only X amount of ways to do things and the patents in question are broad enough to encompass most if not all of the preferable methods

this last patent looks to be a true piece of work.
I was under the asumption that a design had to be NEW AND NOVEL in order to be patentable, but I guess that goes out the window if you think you can sneak somthing past an overburdened uspto.

you also mentioned the AKA went after wgp in court..
what you failed to mention was that AKA went to WGP with the Idea of building vert feed cocker bodies, and Bud said "we will never make a vert feed cocker"
aka produced the VLM and MERLIN and was dragged into court OVER AND OVER by WGP (the last time over the trade dress of the unique "sound" of the cocker) and it ended with the judge findind AKA not at fault with predjudice (meaning WGP could not bring AKA back to court over the design of the merlin) because they had no leg to stand on.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:31 AM #76
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snipped your long post
You're building your business through hard work, having a better product, and honest competition, not dubious legal practices and strong arming. There's a big difference there.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:47 AM #77
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not like it matter pump scout - if it has air though the grip, and the patent is approved as it was applied for, it can be used on the mini.

c'mon, you know smart parts better than that scout, they patented the switch, every switch, HES, opto, micro, you name if its a switch and therefor covered.

they can claim otherwise, but there history clearly shows that they dont make that distinction.
Planet has the optical swicth patented I thought. Ours just pertained to the micro switch and other things. In order to get around a patent, you have to change at least 25% if I rememeber correctly from the ole KAPP days.

Quote:
Working for Smart Parts must be like working for the IRS. Inside, you want to think that you're doing the right thing for those you work for, but what it boils down to is being in a career that involves taking advantage of your own people, benefiting only those you work for.
I have been in paintball industry for many years. I have managed stores, fields, built fields, reffed, worked on R&D, sales, worked for another manufacturer who was revolutionary who is not around anymore.. before I got here. So, to personally attack me is pointless because I have a wealth of knowledge in paintball. I also used to be a very large hater myself of Smart Parts. My journey here went against everything I thought back then. It was Darryl Trent who brought me in and I am thankful to him for that. I have learned a lot here and learned a lot from Billy and Adam. So, I am not just so paid guy here out to defend Smart Parts. I am one of the reason a lot of misinformation is out there and I am just trying to fix it.

Quote:
Legally, I wonder if there's a distinction between "milled" and "cast". I'm pretty sure my circa-1992 SL-68II has cast-in air passages in the frame.

A slight OT-deviation for a sec... something I've been wondering. Sean, do you have an e-mail alert subscription to this thread?
Of course I do. But you also have to realize that the SL-68 may have been cast, and then milled, it only went to a valve. There is a difference since the LUXE has passage ways going through the frame, body, and regulator. Like I said before, you only have to change so much.

And, to SWAMPY AO. I understand where you come from. As I was once in the same way. If Smart Parts did not patent what they did, then WDP would have, or even someone else. That is just the nature of the beast. Then, the money and jobs would be in another country and not here in the US. Billy and Adam are smart. I will give them that. But, one nice thing about patents is that it forces other people to innovate. If they did not, everyone who be scrambling to knock off everyone else and have it made in china. This could hurt the entire industry for years.

Here is another thing. How come DYE does not get crap? I always wondered this. They have a patent that they bought from someone else (which people claimed we did as well, which is untrue). And it was a spool valve and so is a mag. Tom Kaye could have patented that ages ago, but he lost the passion in paintball. Could AKA and AGD make electro guns today?? Yes. And they were ultra highend, so an extra $25 on the retail gun price is a moot point.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:49 AM #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainspaulding View Post
the bushmaster,bko,freestyle,emag,xmag,viking,excal ect (not to mention the designs of marker manufacturers that are currently paying royalties to SP) all did it "differently" then the original shocker, but that didn't seem to matter when the smoke settled did it?
Because it wasn't done differently. They still used an electronic switch to fire the marker..

I just took a very informative class on patents offered through KIZ, and NEWPA one of the things we found out is that a pending patent means very little, that a small patent on a larger device means very little, and even if a large business screws you there is very little you can do.

We kept going back to cars, just about every part of a car has a patent on it, yet they all function the same. There are several reasons for this, but the largest is the automobile company that owns a patent can not prove that the other company made a profit based on their patent.

There were very easy ways for companies to get around smart parts. I like the idea of "Part Kits" ie, you buy each part to your gun individually from a web page then pay to have it put together.

But lets say you don't want to do that, you want to challenge smart parts. So you make a gun that is a 100% new idea, 100% different design, and you can prove beyond a doubt is *LOVED* by the consumers in this industry. The only catch is it uses a switch to fire the gun. A few weeks go by and you receive a letter that smart parts wants to "talk" and you blow it off. A few months go by, and the subpoena shows up so you begin your legal battle.

Lets say there is $200 markup on your gun. You decide that you don't want to fight smart parts in the fact that they own the patent and they are wrong, what you are looking for is can you prove that by violating the patent you made little / no profit? So you have a independent research company come in and poll 500 people that bought the gun to list 5 reasons they bought the gun. You compose a large list, of reasons and start to look at them. Lets say out of 500, 100 people said something along the lines of "ROF / Trigger pull / light trigger feel / fast trigger response" as one of their reasons.

So it is safe to say that 1/5th of your consumers purchased the gun because of the patent you violated. Well thats not going to get you anywhere in court, so you look deeper into the "ROF" you find that your gun has 10 major components that make it fire as fast as it does, or "Feel" the way it does. So to be fair we will divide the 1/5th of your client base (100 people) by the 10 major components, one being a micro switch. Leaving you with 10 people that bought the gun because they liked how it fired. Now all of these 10 people gave 5 reasons why they bought the gun, only 1 had to do with the ROF / Trigger, so there are 50 reasons total, and only 10 are trigger.

With $200 profit, thats $40 a reason, 1 reason is the trigger.

So for every 500 guns sold, you profit $40 exclusively because you violated a patent. Just get the judge to see it that way, and you may leave with that exact judgment.

While smart parts claims the fee is low, I doubt it is as low as .08cents a gun.

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Old 04-18-2008, 09:56 AM #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainspaulding View Post
I have been lurking on here for a bit, but now I have to speak up.

the bushmaster,bko,freestyle,emag,xmag,viking,excal ect (not to mention the designs of marker manufacturers that are currently paying royalties to SP) all did it "differently" then the original shocker, but that didn't seem to matter when the smoke settled did it?

you say the patents are going to "stablize the industry"
how?
by weeding out the small upstart companys?
by choking technology with over the top over broad patents?
I will give it to you that from Bill and Adams end of things it must make everything look pretty rosey.

you say patents breed inovation, this is true unless there is only X amount of ways to do things and the patents in question are broad enough to encompass most if not all of the preferable methods

this last patent looks to be a true piece of work.
I was under the asumption that a design had to be NEW AND NOVEL in order to be patentable, but I guess that goes out the window if you think you can sneak somthing past an overburdened uspto.

you also mentioned the AKA went after wgp in court..
what you failed to mention was that AKA went to WGP with the Idea of building vert feed cocker bodies, and Bud said "we will never make a vert feed cocker"
aka produced the VLM and MERLIN and was dragged into court OVER AND OVER by WGP (the last time over the trade dress of the unique "sound" of the cocker) and it ended with the judge findind AKA not at fault with predjudice (meaning WGP could not bring AKA back to court over the design of the merlin) because they had no leg to stand on.
WGP did make a vert feed cocker. It was called the STO (Special Tournament Operations) starting in 1995. The Merlin did not come out until 98 I believe. The issue was trade dress, but the amount of money spent on both sides was pointless. Where is the cocker today?? Bud was trying to protect his designs, but were unable to. The best he could do was trade mark the name Autococker. I forget the reasons why. I was very close on all that as well since at that time I worked for KAPP.

An Electronic Paintball marker was new and novel in 1996. Hence, the patent was granted. Patents are not given out like candy. It takes years for them to go through. During this time, ANYONE can file a claim against it. Then that claim is investigated. And yes, I do believe patents force innovation. They force people to come up with more than 1 way to fire a solenoid, or a paintball... etc etc.
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Old 04-18-2008, 10:00 AM #80
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Because it wasn't done differently. They still used an electronic switch to fire the marker..
semantics,
a microswitch, optical switch, HES are all switches, and are all under smartparts patent ( and if this is not the case why was AGD sent a letter about the EMAG?)
is it that much of a leap of faith to think that if i switch is a switch is a switch, then maybe it doesn't matter if air is delivered through a milled hole in a gripframe vs a milled hole in a tube in a gripframe?
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Old 04-18-2008, 10:08 AM #81
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so whats this one about sean? - http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/fetch.j...+DE%2fdrop%29+

how does one exactly patent something like that ... its only widespread, commonplace in every industry in the world, and fairly commonplace in paintball aswell.

you not going to claim SP "invented" this right? im pretty sure the nelspot 007 (with the wide varities of setups and parts you could buy with them) would be proof enough that this is total BS.

see, now we are even beyond patenting the legs on a chair, and now we are to patenting the action of selling a chair.

sean, seriously, there are alot easier ways to make a buck in this world then sit on the web and try to defend the indefensible.
All it is is a build your own paintball gun kit. Nothing more nothing less. I just got the skinny on it. There are many patents that are granted in various industries that never see the light of day as well in the public. Just because a patent is approved, does not mean it will be made.
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Old 04-18-2008, 10:16 AM #82
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"An Electronic Paintball marker was new and novel in 1996."

but selling a marker in "kit form in 2008 is not and hasn't been since the nelson challenger in the 80s

nor is running air through the gripframe

"Hence, the patent was granted. Patents are not given out like candy. It takes years for them to go through. During this time, ANYONE can file a claim against it. Then that claim is investigated."

in 1996 the industry was Very young, and not all of the bussiness owners at the time had an attorny for a parent.


"And yes, I do believe patents force innovation. They force people to come up with more than 1 way to fire a solenoid, or a paintball... etc etc."

a patent that is not overly broad will in fact force inovation. I am not arguing that, however I defy you or any one to relibly fire an electronic solenoid without a way to remove and apply voltage..... a switch.
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Old 04-18-2008, 10:20 AM #83
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Planet has the optical swicth patented I thought. Ours just pertained to the micro switch and other things. In order to get around a patent, you have to change at least 25% if I rememeber correctly from the ole KAPP days.
right, but your patent coves the USE of A switch. so the method and operation of the switch is irrelevant to your patents. if you have a switch, your violating the "shocker" patent.

interesting that you toss out a 25% number ...

how does one quantify innovation? i certainly dont think the use of a opto switch is 25% new, neither more than half the patents smart parts has. who decides this 25% factor?

i still would like an answer on the patent i posted. there is no technical innovation involved, so i wonder how you can even patent it. its a marketing scheme, not a technical achievement. i dont think you can patent marketing. tho, if there was anyone who would try that - SP would. i am gonna patent the exchange of money for property or services, that way i have comparative advantage in every transaction EVER.

and dont get off on the whole "if adam and billy didn't step up to the plate ... " crap. you'll notice WDP has half the rights on the electro patent that they won from you, and yet they have not asked anyone for royalties, yet they are perfectly able to. i also have already brought up the fact that china does not recognize IP laws, so that point is garbage. adam and billy are smart no doubt, but they are very smart in what they say, and how they say it.

why don't we attack dye? good question. first, dye bought the rights from GenE who bought the rights from diablo. none of those companies were destroyed in the process. none of the rights were bought up at auction for pennies on the dollar. see, i have herd (dont mistake that for beleiving, as billy gave me a different story in person, and i dont have any evidence to support either side) the PVI story a bit differently than billy tells it. so you have dye, who did it all TOTALLY legit, like squeaky clean, and then you have Smart Parts, well known for spouting BS like they are trying to get elected to office. tends to lead to a very different conclusion.
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Old 04-18-2008, 10:54 AM #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean@smartpartswest View Post
All it is is a build your own paintball gun kit. Nothing more nothing less. I just got the skinny on it. There are many patents that are granted in various industries that never see the light of day as well in the public. Just because a patent is approved, does not mean it will be made.
so it costs TONS of money to patent and Idea, witch SP is willing to spend... to not use it. why?

in my mind for one of a couple reasons

#1 to get paid roylties from anyone who does use it, even though it has already been done for decades
or
#2 SP demanded liscencing money from most if ont all of the aftermarket board manufacturers. so a board from todao, virtue ect. come to the end user with liscencing fees paid, what is stoping marker manufactures from building a kit that will accept an aftermarket board.... someone not paying smartparts this will not stand.

and the track record of the gardners is more then enough info I need. go on call me an alarmist



just my take on a couple of the posibilities
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