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Old 03-14-2008, 11:28 PM #22
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Grant, yes, they did lower the price via quality and also via manufacturing technique...

i guess my question is how can this be seen as all negative? eclipse has the etek, dye the pmr, and dangerous power and a few other smaller companies appear to be more succesful at selling cheaper markers these days, which in turn is seen on the speedball fields...more people playing, still a growing sport (depsite some struggles)...
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Old 03-15-2008, 11:54 AM #23
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It is about balance. Some corners can be cut while others can not. Really I don't care that there are these new cheap markers, but things like using super cheap aluminum on their shockers does bother me. My biggest gripe though is the whole thing with AKA.
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Old 03-15-2008, 12:35 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcpusher View Post
but things like using super cheap aluminum on their shockers does bother me.
The alloy used is actually more expensive and stronger, while being considered the easiest to machine. It is true that the alloy SP used is not as receptive to the traditional anodizing as 6061 is, but there is no disadvantage mechanically to the sft bodies. you could argue the threads for the feedneck, but even then, you need to take care in chaning it.

I dont really know what else to say on the aluminum. 2000 series, along with 7000 is regarded as true aircraft structure grade, while 6061 is used sometimes.
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Old 03-15-2008, 12:55 PM #25
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i like my shockers stop complaining its not good for paintball.
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Old 03-15-2008, 01:13 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mc.Gregory View Post
i like my shockers stop complaining its not good for paintball.

greg, not quite the intent of the thread...

the OP quoted a mod post telling them to take the anti-SP discussion to the legalities subforum, which has been done...

please respect that and only engage in conversation that supports the thread or provide adequate reasoning if you feel otherwise...
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Old 03-15-2008, 01:21 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mc.Gregory View Post
its not good for paintball.
you know what isn't good for paintball.... Smart Parts

sorry had to, you sorta set yourself up there.
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Old 03-15-2008, 01:30 PM #28
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every time I read that post by little al I die a little inside...
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:04 PM #29
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maybe we'll see an STD Evil-M (I can hope ok )
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Old 03-15-2008, 08:16 PM #30
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A little clarification, which I'm also going to meld into the first post here:

The intent of this thread is to have a place to discuss - with some intelligence and direction - the legalities of Smart Parts' business moves. Blatantly wrong information will not be allowed. Rumoring will not be allowed. It is not just a general "whine about Smart Parts at random" thread, it's a place to gather any and all discussion about the legalities involved.

Post at will, but remember that due to the inflamatory nature of a thread like this, it will be watched closely.
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Old 03-15-2008, 10:07 PM #31
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well, if we have to stick to intelligent discussions....

I'd like some clarification on what exactly the patent SP sued AKA over was. My impression was that they have a patent on any electronic paintball gun operated by a switch.
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Old 03-16-2008, 01:18 PM #32
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SP claimed to have a patent on all switch-activated electropneumatic markers. In reality, the patent (which they bought for the purpose) was not as far-reaching as they would like us to believe. However, they DID have a legal department willing to backup their claims, meaning any company disputing their claim would have to hire lawyers and fight back. This basically killed: AKA, AGD (yes, they still sell old stock and offer warranty, but no longer develop new products), ICD (the first to be sued, right after the owner had a heart attack, never really developed anything after the suit, now dead), and others.

The reality is this: SP has destroyed innovative companies, including the one that basically invented modern paintball (Tom Kaye @ AGD), and given us very little in return. Patents exist to encourage innovation, yet SP has used it for the exact opposite purpose. What has SP ever innovated? As far as I can tell the only thing they ever gave us was ramping (original Shocker Turbo), the stupidest feature ever allowed on a field (basically F/A). Worse, now the entire industry seems complicit in helping SP cover its rise to dominance, probably out of fear. Paintball has changed dramatically in the past 10 years since electros because the standard, and SP has gamed that fact to the greatest extent possible.
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Old 03-16-2008, 06:11 PM #33
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Thanks for the clarification

It might just be me, but it seems like lately SP has somewhat cleaned up its act. It could be as much everyone cowing to their wishes though.
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Old 03-16-2008, 07:14 PM #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzy View Post
SP claimed to have a patent on all switch-activated electropneumatic markers. In reality, the patent (which they bought for the purpose) was not as far-reaching as they would like us to believe. However, they DID have a legal department willing to backup their claims, meaning any company disputing their claim would have to hire lawyers and fight back. This basically killed: AKA, AGD (yes, they still sell old stock and offer warranty, but no longer develop new products), ICD (the first to be sued, right after the owner had a heart attack, never really developed anything after the suit, now dead), and others.

The reality is this: SP has destroyed innovative companies, including the one that basically invented modern paintball (Tom Kaye @ AGD), and given us very little in return. Patents exist to encourage innovation, yet SP has used it for the exact opposite purpose. What has SP ever innovated? As far as I can tell the only thing they ever gave us was ramping (original Shocker Turbo), the stupidest feature ever allowed on a field (basically F/A). Worse, now the entire industry seems complicit in helping SP cover its rise to dominance, probably out of fear. Paintball has changed dramatically in the past 10 years since electros because the standard, and SP has gamed that fact to the greatest extent possible.


i would argue that planet eclipse has been a good thing that has come about, from what i can see, under the wing of SP and WGP.... they made some of the best impulse upgrades and pushed the cocker further before becoming very successful using what they learned with the impulse/timmy/aka/others and created the ego....

correct me if i am wrong, and Bob long has had his best guns in the most recent years, and he has been held back more by national than by SP....
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Old 03-16-2008, 11:07 PM #35
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Yeah, don't get me wrong, there have been MANY great companies in the recent years (MacDev especially) and lots of competition, but it's a much more one-sided game now. At the high end, there are lots of great, innovative markers (DM8, Ego, and Closer all stand out), but SP still dominates the mid-end electro market, and even the low end (Ion was a great business move). Who knows what SP has up their sleeve next?
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Old 03-16-2008, 11:13 PM #36
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Who knows what SP has up their sleeve next?
i hope we find out soon....

i need to decide ego8-droid-new SP
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:35 AM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcpusher View Post
well, if we have to stick to intelligent discussions....

I'd like some clarification on what exactly the patent SP sued AKA over was. My impression was that they have a patent on any electronic paintball gun operated by a switch.
Months ago on here, there was an epic thread that touched 99.9% of what we know about SP Legal issues. It was mad long though.

That was the thread where Billy Gardner came in and shot himself in the foot by posting. Numerous people in the know came out and spit out nuggets of knowledge. A good read if you have some time and deeper clarity.

WDP, DYE and SP have 3 key patents to electronic paintball markers.

DYE has spool valve technology
WDP has any board operated marker
SP has numerous but the big one is markers fired by a microswitch

(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, its from memory and I've been up all night)
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:29 AM #38
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Originally Posted by mcgyver View Post
Months ago on here, there was an epic thread that touched 99.9% of what we know about SP Legal issues. It was mad long though.

That was the thread where Billy Gardner came in and shot himself in the foot by posting. Numerous people in the know came out and spit out nuggets of knowledge. A good read if you have some time and deeper clarity.

WDP, DYE and SP have 3 key patents to electronic paintball markers.

DYE has spool valve technology
WDP has any board operated marker
SP has numerous but the big one is markers fired by a microswitch

(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, its from memory and I've been up all night)

all true from my recollection
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:36 PM #39
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someone have a link to the thread
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:08 AM #40
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Quote:
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someone have a link to the thread
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...397602&page=35

posts between 719-934

I stopped buying SP products when AKA was put out of business.
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Old 03-20-2008, 01:47 PM #41
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Old 03-20-2008, 02:19 PM #42
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Now, I know little to nothing about the legalities of what I'm about to suggest, so be gentle....

But would it be possible for a new company to buy AKA's designs and begin to produce markers....and then when SP rolls around to get their share like a bunch of wanna-be gangsters, they could at that point choose to settle or fight?

Like it or not, SP seems to have everyone by the balls through their manipulation of the legal system, and I really can't foresee anyone fighting and winning without equal or greater resources. The wisest course of action may be to play to SP's good side and suffer through the royalties until you become successful enough to try and shake them off, which is basically what I see MacDev doing at this point.

But hell, just about ever industry is dangerously close to slipping off to hell in a handbasket right now...maybe we'll see some of these restrictive legalities shaken loose soon as companies scramble to keep from going under.
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