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Old 03-08-2008, 08:55 AM #64
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Originally Posted by Animalm0ther3 View Post
They hate us because we occupied the holy land during the Gulf War.
What about the incident in Iran? Unless I have my timeline screwed up, that happened before the Gulf War.
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Old 03-08-2008, 03:34 PM #65
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^We were interfering in their state's affairs? I would think we would do the same if say Britain was doing it to us. Oh wait that was the American Revolution...
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Old 03-08-2008, 05:55 PM #66
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Maybe because an immediate withdraw from Iraq would be an irresponsible decision? I hate to break it to you, but McCain's not the only candidate who feels the same way.
Is that what I said? I did not say immediate withdrawal. Stop putting words in my mouth.

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The American people were initially supportive of the Iraqi war. Now public opinion has shifted and everyone wants out immediately. Well you can't have your cake and eat it too.
A LOT has changed in Iraq from the time of the pre-war support to now. Support was high when we all agreed that Saddam likely had nuclear weapons and was going to use them very soon. This has obviously turned out to be false, which is why Americans no longer support the war. The basis of the mission was flawed, and that upsets many Americans. It's not like I just decided one day to stop supporting the war, it was a gradual period of time beginning from the moment it was clear there were no nuclear weapons in Iraq and punctuated by the loss of a marine who I graduated high school with. Now one of my best friends are over there fighting in a war that I believe was started in error. I have every reason in the world to not support this war.

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We don't live in a loonie left snow globe. in the real world actions have consequences. Like the consequence for toppling a foreign government regime then bailing out.
You can't just spew out "there will be consequences" without substantiating that claim. Obviously there would be some drawbacks FOR IRAQIS if we were to leave. I see no problems in removing our troops but maintaining a sufficient military support force (via the air force and navy) to support the Iraqi ground troops in countering al Qaeda. I oppose having our troops patrolling their streets, and I oppose planting permanent bases in the region that will serve only to breed more resentment towards ourselves and place the lives of our troops in danger for longer than is necessary to ensure the new Iraqi government has the military capability to protect itself.

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Even a successful withdraw will take time, years even. That is the reality of the situation, even though I'm sure it's comfortable for you to think otherwise.
Stop categorizing me. I never said it wouldn't take time. As a matter of fact, if McCain came out and said "I can guarantee full withdrawal in 10 years" I would be satisfied. I OPPOSE A PERMANENT PRESENCE. I do not believe that a permanent presence is in the best interests of our nation or our troops, and McCain leaves no room in his logic to believe that we will ever withdraw fully from Iraq.

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Regardless of who takes office, there will be an American presence in Iraq for many years to come. Deal with it.
Deal with it? How about no. I will not just sit back and do nothing. I don't care if it takes a socialist to get us out of Iraq, I would vote in ANYONE if they said we will be leaving Iraq in the foreseeable future. I promise you I am not alone in my thinking, which is why McCain won't win in November. My fiscal conservatism, social conservatism, and libertarianism all take a back seat to this issue.
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:57 PM #67
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Is that what I said? I did not say immediate withdrawal. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I didn't put words in your mouth there cochise. You said and I quote "McCain's stance leaves no room for withdrawal from Iraq in the immediate future." That was your word champ, not mine. And if that's your gripe with his policy then logic would denote that you're in agreement with an immediate withdraw. If that's not correct then you may want to consider conveying your opinions more accurately.

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A LOT has changed in Iraq from the time of the pre-war support to now. Support was high when we all agreed that Saddam likely had nuclear weapons and was going to use them very soon. This has obviously turned out to be false, which is why Americans no longer support the war. The basis of the mission was flawed, and that upsets many Americans. It's not like I just decided one day to stop supporting the war, it was a gradual period of time beginning from the moment it was clear there were no nuclear weapons in Iraq and punctuated by the loss of a marine who I graduated high school with. Now one of my best friends are over there fighting in a war that I believe was started in error. I have every reason in the world to not support this war.
Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. I've lost a cousin to the Iraqi war as well. My point however, was not to justify or crucify the change in American support. Like I said before, you can't topple a country's government then pull out once you've realized a mistake has been made. That's irresponsible despite how much you or I or the American people disagree with the war. Leaving these people in the hands of another rising tyrant is not the answer to this problem. Mistakes may have been made in the course of this war, but compounding those mistakes by immediately withdrawing is not going to solve anything.

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I see no problems in removing our troops but maintaining a sufficient military support force (via the air force and navy) to support the Iraqi ground troops in countering al Qaeda.
And I suppose you know exactly how many troops that takes. Our boots are on their soil to do exactly what you've said, hunt Al Qaeda. This war is not black and white. It's a war where our enemies hide amongst the innocents, use them as human shields, force them into combat, and slaughter those who refuse. Do you have any idea what kind of military presence it takes to fight an enemy like that?

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I OPPOSE A PERMANENT PRESENCE. I do not believe that a permanent presence is in the best interests of our nation or our troops, and McCain leaves no room in his logic to believe that we will ever withdraw fully from Iraq.
I couldn't disagree more. I think if the Iraqi government supports an American presence then why should we turn our backs on them? I'm not talking about militant forces on the ground, I'm talking about American consulates, embassies, etc. If you consider that an American presence and are still against such a thing, then I don't know what to tell you.

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Deal with it? How about no. I will not just sit back and do nothing. I don't care if it takes a socialist to get us out of Iraq, I would vote in ANYONE if they said we will be leaving Iraq in the foreseeable future. I promise you I am not alone in my thinking, which is why McCain won't win in November. My fiscal conservatism, social conservatism, and libertarianism all take a back seat to this issue.
Careful my friend. More often than not the easy path is not the correct path. You think any of us like seeing Americans come home in coffins? There's change and then there's REAL change. Real change would not be an immediate withdraw. Real change would not be to surrender to an extremist organization with no regard for human life. Real change is what America needs. You can't put a band-aid on a mortal wound and hope it heals.

If you want CHANGE, then sure, vote for someone who promises big and pray they deliver. If you want REAL change, give your vote to someone who's not just spewing hot air, someone who actually has a practical plan and a realistic long term policy with Iraq. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying McCain is this candidate, but don't throw your vote into the wind just because you disagree with a single policy. Remember, there's still a lot more people involved with the government decision making process than just the president. Just because McCain "wants to be in Iraq for 100 years" doesn't mean that's what's going to happen if he should become president.
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Old 03-08-2008, 11:36 PM #68
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What about the incident in Iran? Unless I have my timeline screwed up, that happened before the Gulf War.
That built American hatred, but the Saudi Arabia incident specifically lead to Al Qaeda turning on the US and planning 911.
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Old 03-09-2008, 12:17 AM #69
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That built American hatred, but the Saudi Arabia incident specifically lead to Al Qaeda turning on the US and planning 911.
That didn't build American hatred....its been going on since there was a distinction between Islam and Christianity. What it all boils down to is religion, unfortunately. America is seen as predominantly Christian and the middle east predominantly Muslim and for the most part they've never gotten along.
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Old 03-09-2008, 12:30 AM #70
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That built American hatred, but the Saudi Arabia incident specifically lead to Al Qaeda turning on the US and planning 911.
But you still can't say that's the only reason that they hate us when that, combined with our helping of Israel, and liberal thinking in America, has also contributed to their hatred of us.
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Old 03-09-2008, 01:20 AM #71
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Whats wrong with Patriotism or a sense of nationalism?
World War One
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Old 03-09-2008, 01:26 AM #72
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But you still can't say that's the only reason that they hate us when that, combined with our helping of Israel, and liberal thinking in America, has also contributed to their hatred of us.
I'm not, lol.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:59 AM #73
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I'm not, lol.
Oh, alright. From the way you said it, you made it sound like that was the only reason. Sorry.
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Old 03-09-2008, 06:39 PM #74
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They hate us for our freedom, we're now more free that we have invaded Iraq. We're more free, Im tellin ya.
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Old 03-09-2008, 08:31 PM #75
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The argument that we need permanent military bases in Iraq baffles me. If the goal of the military bases is to secure the region, and the reason for why there is no security is because of American military presence, then the notion of establishing military bases basically does more harm than good.
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Old 03-09-2008, 08:36 PM #76
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The argument that we need permanent military bases in Iraq baffles me. If the goal of the military bases is to secure the region, and the reason for why there is no security is because of American military presence, then the notion of establishing military bases basically does more harm than good.
But the people saying we need long term/permanent bases do not agree with this statement.

No matter who gets elected, we will be in Iraq for a long, long time.
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Old 03-09-2008, 08:52 PM #77
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But the people saying we need long term/permanent bases do not agree with this statement.

No matter who gets elected, we will be in Iraq for a long, long time.
Then they would have to explain why directly after military intervention in Iraq, there has been a substantial increase in Al-Qaeda recruitment, explain why the insurgency constitutes not only Al-Qaeda but local militias and Iraqi nationals, and basically refute the explanation that it is simple human nature to attempt to oust the foriegn invader from an individuals homeland.

Again, it is the arguments audacity of illogicality which baffles me. If China establishes military bases in our country, have their private military contractors roaming around, their corporations buying out our natural resources, establishing a puppet government in our country, and have their navy near our shores and their aircrafts circulating our skies, and trying to impose their ideology of "freedom" on us, then we will realize what actually fuels anti-sentiment towards an arbiter; and the idea of picking up a rifle in retaliation, in rage and righteous indignation, for revenge because one of their bombs happened to kill one of your relatives, or your family member on accident, wouldn't be so hard to grasp.
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:07 PM #78
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Then they would have to explain why directly after military intervention in Iraq, there has been a substantial increase in Al-Qaeda recruitment, explain why the insurgency constitutes not only Al-Qaeda but local militias and Iraqi nationals, and basically refute the explanation that it is simple human nature to attempt to oust the foriegn invader from an individuals homeland.

Again, it is the arguments audacity of illogicality which baffles me. If China establishes military bases in our country, have their private military contractors roaming around, their corporations buying out our natural resources, establishing a puppet government in our country, and have their navy near our shores and their aircrafts circulating our skies, and trying to impose their ideology of "freedom" on us, then we will realize what actually fuels anti-sentiment towards an arbiter; and the idea of picking up a rifle in retaliation, in rage and righteous indignation, for revenge because one of their bombs happened to kill one of your relatives, or your family member on accident, wouldn't be so hard to grasp.
Our occupation is certainly upping the enemy's recruitment and activity, but the argument is that the terrorist's started the fight. I understand why some Iraqi's hate us for intervening, but they are the same one's who prefer someone cutting off their hands for speaking against the gov't, or are just uninformed about what we're trying to do. We're trying to get a democracy set up, if they want to vote in a torturing dictator, they can do so.
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:11 PM #79
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We're trying to get a democracy set up,
Please, stop listening to the BS the Tv tells you!
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:31 PM #80
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Our occupation is certainly upping the enemy's recruitment and activity, but the argument is that the terrorist's started the fight. I understand why some Iraqi's hate us for intervening, but they are the same one's who prefer someone cutting off their hands for speaking against the gov't, or are just uninformed about what we're trying to do. We're trying to get a democracy set up, if they want to vote in a torturing dictator, they can do so.
So are you saying that because we have "good intentions" it justifies what we do? That the insurgents are unjust because of their unwillingness to cooperate?

I'm sorry it just baffles me that people seem to care so much about bringing "democracy and freedom" to the iraqi people. It's their problem, as far as I can care. I'm more worried about getting our own kids through school and having our own kids live in a prosperous nation. We simply do not have the resources to continue doing what we are doing over there, the notion that we NEED to stay over there until the job is "finished" (a very arbitrary term) is just insane, and it makes me sick knowing that our generation will be paying for it until we die.
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:31 PM #81
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The argument that we need permanent military bases in Iraq baffles me. If the goal of the military bases is to secure the region, and the reason for why there is no security is because of American military presence, then the notion of establishing military bases basically does more harm than good.
We have corporate interests in Iraq, and god knows the Government just loves those Corporations given all the subsidies there are.
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:34 PM #82
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We have corporate interests in Iraq, and god knows the Government just loves those Corporations given all the subsidies there are.
And the sad thing is, those corporate interests are more apt to **** over the iraqi people in economic terms. Sure, some will make good of it, but the majority of the money and resources will come into American pockets, not their own. It'll be the same as what the French dealt out to various African nations: They exploit, they profit, the natives suffer.
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:35 PM #83
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So are you saying that because we have "good intentions" it justifies what we do? That the insurgents are unjust because of their unwillingness to cooperate?

I'm sorry it just baffles me that people seem to care so much about bringing "democracy and freedom" to the iraqi people. It's their problem, as far as I can care. I'm more worried about getting our own kids through school and having our own kids live in a prosperous nation. We simply do not have the resources to continue doing what we are doing over there, the notion that we NEED to stay over there until the job is "finished" (a very arbitrary term) is just insane, and it makes me sick knowing that our generation will be paying for it until we die.
It's called "precived reality".
It's not his fault, it just happens to be the way he was taught. Not to say that his eyes can't be opened, they have just never been open!
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:36 PM #84
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And the sad thing is, those corporate interests are more apt to **** over the iraqi people in economic terms. Sure, some will make good of it, but the majority of the money and resources will come into American pockets, not their own. It'll be the same as what the French dealt out to various African nations: They exploit, they profit, the natives suffer.
American Pockets? How about "Global Invester pockets", far from American pockets!
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