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Old 02-27-2008, 10:35 AM #64
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When I get home from work this afternoon, I will do the math across all divisions and formats so everyone can see how the prize distribution is currently set up based on rough estimates of entry fees and paint usage. That will give everyone an accurate picture of where their respective division and format stacks up to others.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:21 PM #65
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what i gather from everything, you can't make everyone happy no matter how hard the CFOA tries
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:23 PM #66
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It seems to me that if all teams(that have a chance to do so) choose the prizes that include PSP money, then every team gets what i think is proportional to their division and entry fee.
However, if all teams only choose the prizes that dont include PSP money, then it seems to get unfair to the XBall teams of D3 and more unfair to D2.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:28 PM #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadBodyMan View Post
what i gather from everything, you can't make everyone happy no matter how hard the CFOA tries
Nope, so we just deal with it!!!
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:34 PM #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jxnrdy View Post
It seems to me that if all teams(that have a chance to do so) choose the prizes that include PSP money, then every team gets what i think is proportional to their division and entry fee.
However, if all teams only choose the prizes that dont include PSP money, then it seems to get unfair to the XBall teams of D3 and more unfair to D2.
In X ball, if the 1st place team chooses the PSP option, the other 3 placing teams don't have the option to take the PSP entries.

Mind you, we shouldn't have to take advantage of a PSP offer and play two different series just to feel like we are getting our just payout. Some people can't afford to take time off or the additional money it takes to play PSP, even when entry is free, that is why we play CFOA, because we can all get our Xball/5 man fix at a substantially cheaper price.
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:03 PM #69
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i agree with you, i think the payouts of the prizes with PSP money should equal the prizes without PSP money because some teams dont play PSP

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Old 02-27-2008, 05:54 PM #70
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CFOA Prize Breakdown As Promised

Here is a breakdown on the returns teams can expect based on the current CFOA prize structure and what the average team will spend to play an event.

This breakdown takes into account, non sponsored teams who pay full entry fees and $40 per case of paint.

This breakdown also does not include gas, food, hotel, and any other expenses incured. Those are absorbed expenses.

And further, this breakdown does not include the optional PSP entries, which only one team per division can claim and therefore would create inaccuracies if included. However, it does include those half off PSP entries that are rewarded and not optional prizes.

Although most, if not all players and teams know that they will not "make" money playing paintball, it would be nice for every division to have a closer shot at breaking even.

Another thought to ponder - 31 Xball teams paid almost the same in entry fees as 97 5-man teams. Less teams = same cash to the CFOA.

Current CFOA Cash Prize Breakdown

D2 Xball
Entry Fee - $1200
45 Cases of Paint - $1800
Total - $3000

1st Place - $2000 Return = 66%
2nd Place - $1500 Return = 50%
3rd Place - $1000 Return = 33%
4th Place - $500 Return = 16%

D3 Xball
Entry Fee - $1100
40 cases of Paint - $1600
Total - $2700

1st Place - $1700 Return = 62%
2nd Place - $1300 Return = 48%
3rd Place - $900 Return = 33%
4th Place - $1200 Half off PSP Return = 44%

D3 5-Man
Entry Fee - $475
12 Cases of Paint - $480
Total - $955

1st Place - $1500 Return = 157%
2nd Place - $1250 Return = 130%
3rd Place - $1000 Return = 104%
4th Place - $250 Return = 26%

D4 5-Man
Entry Fee - $375
12 Cases of Paint - $480
Total - $855

1st Place - $1250 Return = 146%
2nd Place - $1000 Return = 116%
3rd Place - $750 Return = 87%
4th Place - $250 Return = 29%

D5 5-Man
Entry Fee - $275
12 Cases of Paint - $480
Total - $755

1st Place - $500 + $500 Half off PSP Return = 132%
2nd Place - $400 + $500 Half off PSP Return = 119%
3rd Place - $200 Return = 26%
4th Place - $100 Return = 13%

Look at how uneven the cash distribution is! I thought we were supposed to make it to the top to get the cash! Seems like the money is in D3 and D4 5-man. Those teams can pay for their next tournament with their winnings, and possibly a team dinner and hotels as well, while Xball teams are still way in the red and must come up with the deficit to play the next one.

Also, last I knew, the PSP entry prizes were non-transferable, meaning use it or lose it. Personally, I think as long as someone uses it, what is the big deal. A team will still be there playing in your place. It is free entry, so it is not like they are making any money off the team anyway, what does it matter who plays?


Here is what it could be and illustrates a more even distribution of the cash. Keep in mind, I added no additional cash, I only "moved" around the existing $19,550 in available prize money and made the payouts far more evenly divided. With this scenario, every 1st place team in every division gets their money back for placing first, not "making" money but rather helping to pay for the next event. Then the payouts start dropping but still remain pretty consistent throughout all divisions and formats. This illustration is a fair and just way of incorporating the cash prize system into our league.

Proposed CFOA Cash Prize Breakdown

D2 Xball
Entry Fee - $1200
45 Cases of Paint - $1800
Total - $3000

1st Place - $3000 Return = 100%
2nd Place - $1750 Return = 58%
3rd Place - $1250 Return = 41%
4th Place - $750 Return = 25%

D3 Xball
Entry Fee - $1100
40 cases of Paint - $1600
Total - $2700

1st Place - $2700 Return = 100%
2nd Place - $1500 Return = 55%
3rd Place - $1150 Return = 42%
4th Place - $1200 Half off PSP Return = 44%

D3 5-Man
Entry Fee - $475
12 Cases of Paint - $480
Total - $955

1st Place - $1000 Return = 104%
2nd Place - $750 Return = 78%
3rd Place - $500 Return = 52%
4th Place - $250 Return = 26%

D4 5-Man
Entry Fee - $375
12 Cases of Paint - $480
Total - $855

1st Place - $850 Return = 99%
2nd Place - $600 Return = 70%
3rd Place - $350 Return = 40%
4th Place - $250 Return = 29%

D5 5-Man
Entry Fee - $275
12 Cases of Paint - $480
Total - $755

1st Place - $300 + $500 Half off PSP Return = 105%
2nd Place - $100 + $500 Half off PSP Return = 79%
3rd Place - $200 Return = 26%
4th Place - $100 Return = 13%


I know some of you in the divisions and formats that are making out like fat rats probably won't agree with this because it dips into your gold mines, but for the fair minded people, you cannot deny the information I provided is better.

This could be tweeked either way to further even up the distribution, but I thought this was a pretty fair and accurate depiction of what the CFOA has to work with.

I hope this was informative to all who chose to view it. I was not biased either way to any division or format and I did not skew the numbers at all. I wanted an accurate picture for you all to see what we could have and that is what I provided.

It took about 1 hour of my time to put this together.

Enjoy!

See everyone in Rock Hill.
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Old 02-27-2008, 07:32 PM #71
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Nice work.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:03 PM #72
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I dont even play d4 but I find it wrong even if they win the event that they wont break even.. Close but wont.

Issues with your math
5 man teams shoot around 10 cases,
xball not sure... I just hand checks to people.
Most teams don't pay the lowest entry fee possible. If you would have used the middle figures of the entry fee I would feel these numbers would be near perfect.

but good work and understandable
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:15 PM #73
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Quote:
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I dont even play d4 but I find it wrong even if they win the event that they wont break even.. Close but wont.

Issues with your math
5 man teams shoot around 10 cases,
xball not sure... I just hand checks to people.
Most teams don't pay the lowest entry fee possible. If you would have used the middle figures of the entry fee I would feel these numbers would be near perfect.

but good work and understandable
Issues resolved!

If they don't shoot 12 cases, that is $80 more dollars in the team's pocket.
And then you would more than break even. It's within $5 so what. Try losing $1k per event, even when you win.

If a team doesn't pay by the first deadline, which by the way is new for this year, its their own fault and they are taking money out of their own pockets. A prize pool should not be built around teams turning in their entry fees late. It is not very thought out for you to suggest that the level playing field for cash dispersement begin there.

I appreciate and value your opinion and that of others as well.

Understand that this will not change anything, it is for illustrative purposes only.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:18 PM #74
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O I in know way think the prizes are justified and yeah loosing 1k even fro winning is not that much of a pat on the back.

But who knows maybe xball end of series prizes will blow 5mans out of the water.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:22 PM #75
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Quote:
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O I in know way think the prizes are justified and yeah loosing 1k even fro winning is not that much of a pat on the back.

But who knows maybe xball end of series prizes will blow 5mans out of the water.
h2ol0st - Thank you for finding the information regarding End of Series prizes being brought back. Good Find!!!!
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:32 PM #76
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BYOP to Series Sponsored Paint
Joshua D. Silverman Interview

Mr. Silverman said, “Cash speaks, teams can use that money to buy what ever they want, whether it be gear or put the money on next events entry fee. If the teams need gear who else would they go through but their local paintball field/store, with teams doing that it helps paintball start growing again instead of declining. It’s a win/win for both the CFOA and for the people the CFOA supports and that’s the team’s local paintball field/store.”

Another bonus for teams is the CFOA is bringing back end of series cash prize package, the amount is still unknown but expect the CFOA to make the winners in each division very happy. For all this to happen and to be able to give that much cold hard cash out at each event, the sponsors are the ones to thank which include:


$teven ˘. Price
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If im reading that correctly then there will be a prize for series winners. Now that could mean Homecoming Prizes will be crazy big also but I feel that they are talking about series prizes.
-sorry for quoting all that but thats the main part of the article.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:42 PM #77
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Yeah, I read that as end-of-series prizes as well.
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:38 PM #78
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1500 for d3 5man? and you think it should be lower. In the past teams won 5 guns (such as dm7's) .. if they sold them for 500 ea (lowball) that would have been 2500. I like cash payout but prizes are definitely down in value from past years.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:11 AM #79
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Quote:
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If im reading that correctly then there will be a prize for series winners. Now that could mean Homecoming Prizes will be crazy big also but I feel that they are talking about series prizes.
-sorry for quoting all that but thats the main part of the article.
I stand corrected on the End of Series prizes being brought back. It hasn't been officially released yet on the CFOA website or any other avenue except Price's article. I apologize for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry Budha View Post
1500 for d3 5man? and you think it should be lower. In the past teams won 5 guns (such as dm7's) .. if they sold them for 500 ea (lowball) that would have been 2500. I like cash payout but prizes are definitely down in value from past years.
I agree Steve, prizes are down, but that is because they are cash money and infact not "prizes" to redeem and try to sell. All I did was move around the existing cash so that all formats and divisions have an equal chance at breaking even when they win and staying at a rather similar percentage of return for 2nd through 4th placing teams. This puts more emphasis on moving up at a quicker pace from beginner 5 man all the way to D2 Xball, instead of staying at the beginner/rookie levels for years upon end.

Last year the D2 Xball division got guns, free entries, and other prizes which, after being sold, netted teams between $3000-$4500. This year the top prize for D2 is only $2000, so go figure.



I love the replies guys! I value ALL of your opinions, whether you agree with me or not. Nobody will know how we feel about it unless we make it known.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:20 AM #80
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id settle for some of the empire girls from cup as prizes? but rlly, i agree with charles and steve here. if you win the event, you should make somethin out of it. not lose money?
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:04 AM #81
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1500 for d3 5man? and you think it should be lower. In the past teams won 5 guns (such as dm7's) .. if they sold them for 500 ea (lowball) that would have been 2500. I like cash payout but prizes are definitely down in value from past years.
i may just be talking out of my *** here but the production of the markers costs companies ALOT less than having to pay straight out cash. because it costs them soo much less to make a mass product.they were more easily available to give items to the sponsored tournaments. i think as more sponsors come on board to the cfoa we will have higher payouts. But I believe we need to have the players try to get outside sponsors (random companies that may be interested in the sport of paintball) i know if they give to a non profit organization they can write it off in their taxes but im not sure what type of organization the cfoa is exactly. The more sponsors the merrier all of us will be.

edit: this wasent a flame on you, i just thought i needed to express some of my thoughts.
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:08 AM #82
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^ It's not a non-profit, that's for sure. I don't know that company's would get any kind of tax breaks to donate for a prize package...unless it's for Lauren's Hope or another benefit tournament.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:21 AM #83
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yea i was pretty sure that they werent a non protfit but im no buisness major so im not quite sure what kind of benefits/if any at all big companies get from sponsoring a leage except for their name being everywhere which is a big promotion for a company
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:45 AM #84
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I'll use a rough analogy for illustrative purposes only so you understand what all of my posts are about, OK? I don't play for the money. Like I said before, when we win money/prizes, I don't even see it, so yeah. I would be happy if they just reduced the prizes in all divisions below D2 and used that extra money to help grow the series in whatever way they see fit,(pay the refs more, better ref lunches(sorry Larry, I had too), more equipment, more league promotion, more money in board members pockets, whatever!!). See what I am saying? Getting more money doesn't mean squat to me, its the principle that the gap should not be so close between the divisions and formats.

If you worked at a job for many, many years and made, oh lets say, $50,000 per year and a new guy came in with nowhere near your experience or dedication to the company and started his job at $51,000 per year, wouldn't you be pissed? Granted I just used a salary as my analogy instead of prizes, the principle is the same.

The newer players are not deserving of better payouts than the upper level guys. Period! No other series has a prize system like ours. The system is supposed to be tiered from very little prizes at the bottom, to incrementally better and larger prizes on your way to the top, so as to entice more teams to step up from year to year and help grow all divisions of the league and series.

Example - If I was a D3 Xball team and I knew the gap from D3 1st place and D2 1st place was $2000, even if I was a mediocre team, I would try to elevate my game in the off season and compete the next year for the larger prize in the D2 division. But since there is only a $300 gap, why would I risk moving up to play harder teams, when I can elevate my game and stay in the D3 division and probably have a much better chance of winning.

that makes a little more sense now ... even though i see ppl salries come in bigger than mine every day and i went to college ... go figure lol
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