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Old 02-17-2008, 01:34 PM #43
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I'm not complaining. This rebate, plus my tax return, is putting a new roof on my house, which will, in turn, increase the value of the property should I want to sell my house sometime in the near future. What's left over will go into landscaping, or updating windows and doors, further increasing the value.

THIS is exactly how the rebate is going back into the economy. That, and the thousands of flat panel televisions, microwaves, computers, paintball guns, etc that are going to be bought with said rebate. Not everyone puts it directly into their savings account. Shoot, several people are going to invest it right away, and in turn that will help them get even more money. Doesn't it fall under the, "You have to spend money to make money" axiom?

But, I may be more of a glass half full kind of guy and not really fit in on PBN because of it...
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:05 PM #44
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Originally Posted by Animalm0ther3 View Post
No, the rebate is not happening in a vacuum. It is all related. The government cannot create wealth out of thin air, period. It must either be cut from spending, or the currency must be devaluated. I think what you're saying is the government is making an investment, and hoping the money we pump into the economy from the rebate will make up for it. If thats the case, that still doesn't address the inflation, no matter how big or small the effect on it will be.
You don't understand at all. The deficit requires a completely different, unrelated solution. You can't drag that into a discussion about the effectiveness of a tax rebate because it is irrelevant.

The government is not pulling money out of thin air. Period. The money is there, you've already earned it. They're LOWERING tax rates. You don't pay as much in taxes for 2007, so your income is increased. That's all this is. It's not pulling money out of thin air, stop saying that because it's absolutely wrong. The money already exists and belongs to you. They're taking money that you normally spend on government (through taxes) and allowing you to spend it wherever you want. That's not pulling money out of thin air.

The rebate will not affect inflation at all. It can't. Inflation is caused by the demand for money changing relative to the supply of money. A tax rebate does not change either. It will not affect inflation.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:12 PM #45
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Originally Posted by graysonp View Post
You don't understand at all. The deficit requires a completely different, unrelated solution. You can't drag that into a discussion about the effectiveness of a tax rebate because it is irrelevant.

The government is not pulling money out of thin air. Period. The money is there, you've already earned it. They're LOWERING tax rates. You don't pay as much in taxes for 2007, so your income is increased. That's all this is. It's not pulling money out of thin air, stop saying that because it's absolutely wrong. The money already exists and belongs to you. They're taking money that you normally spend on government (through taxes) and allowing you to spend it wherever you want. That's not pulling money out of thin air.

The rebate will not affect inflation at all. It can't. Inflation is caused by the demand for money changing relative to the supply of money. A tax rebate does not change either. It will not affect inflation.
The only way they will be pulling money out of thin air is if the budget stays the same despite this decrease in taxes.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:13 PM #46
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Originally Posted by graysonp View Post
You don't understand at all. The deficit requires a completely different, unrelated solution. You can't drag that into a discussion about the effectiveness of a tax rebate because it is irrelevant.

The government is not pulling money out of thin air. Period. The money is there, you've already earned it. They're LOWERING tax rates. You don't pay as much in taxes for 2007, so your income is increased. That's all this is. It's not pulling money out of thin air, stop saying that because it's absolutely wrong. The money already exists and belongs to you. They're taking money that you normally spend on government (through taxes) and allowing you to spend it wherever you want. That's not pulling money out of thin air.

The rebate will not affect inflation at all. It can't. Inflation is caused by the demand for money changing relative to the supply of money. A tax rebate does not change either. It will not affect inflation.
Tell me where the government got the $150 billion to give to us if they didn't find $150 billion to cut in spending. If they didnt cut $150 billion, then yes, it is coming out of thing air.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:26 PM #47
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Originally Posted by Animalm0ther3 View Post
Tell me where the government got the $150 billion to give to us if they didn't find $150 billion to cut in spending. If they didnt cut $150 billion, then yes, it is coming out of thing air.


It doesn't matter if they cut $150 billion from somewhere. It doesn't matter if they have a $300 billion surplus and they only use 1/2 of it for this rebate. IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT ON THE TAX REBATE'S EFFECTIVENESS. I don't know why you can't understand that. A deficit makes no difference whatsever.

Now let me explain why it's not coming out of thin air. Let's say you owe "Bob" $100. And let's say I want to buy a book from you for $20. Now after I pay you $20, you decide you give $10 back to me as a rebate. Did that money come "from thin air". Of course not. It's my money and you lowered the price I paid for a book (which is essentially the same as raising my income). Does it matter what you owe Bob or whether or not you have the money to pay it back? Of course not.

A tax rebate is no different than a rebate on a TV you bought at Best Buy or a new car you just purchased. It's the same thing. It doesn't matter how much you owe Bob or whether or not you can pay it. The money exists. I earned it, I'm spending it, and you're adjusting the price (or my relative income).
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:28 PM #48
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I'm not using it to make a point, other than don't expect everyone to use it in a way beneficial to the economy.
Did you even read my other post? Even if people save the money, most likely (unless they are truly ignorant) they will put it into a bank, the bank will then take 90% of that (kindasorta) and invest it in the form of loans, which OMG will be used to buy things beneficial to our economy.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:55 AM #49
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I'm an E-5 in the military and my annual income last year was $14,000 I think i need the rebate
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:06 AM #50
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600$ = 3 car payments ftw!
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:48 AM #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graysonp View Post


It doesn't matter if they cut $150 billion from somewhere. It doesn't matter if they have a $300 billion surplus and they only use 1/2 of it for this rebate. IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT ON THE TAX REBATE'S EFFECTIVENESS. I don't know why you can't understand that. A deficit makes no difference whatsever.

Now let me explain why it's not coming out of thin air. Let's say you owe "Bob" $100. And let's say I want to buy a book from you for $20. Now after I pay you $20, you decide you give $10 back to me as a rebate. Did that money come "from thin air". Of course not. It's my money and you lowered the price I paid for a book (which is essentially the same as raising my income). Does it matter what you owe Bob or whether or not you have the money to pay it back? Of course not.

A tax rebate is no different than a rebate on a TV you bought at Best Buy or a new car you just purchased. It's the same thing. It doesn't matter how much you owe Bob or whether or not you can pay it. The money exists. I earned it, I'm spending it, and you're adjusting the price (or my relative income).
First, horrible analogy.

Second, I don't think he is trying to argue the effectiveness of the tax rebate. Whether it is spent or saved the money will make its way into the economy, unless people burn it or just put it in a safe at home or something similar. I think he is arguing the effect of taking $150 billion in tax collections that would normally go into the government's budget, and returning it to the people which creates a deficit in the budget. Some of the money will undoubtedly be returned to the budget through various other taxes but that is not a very large portion.

If the annual budget created a surplus that covered the rebate then it would be fine because the money being returned would not have otherwise been spent(this is also in an ideal scenario where there is no total deficit that needs to be paid back). In a situation where the annual budget is already in the red, returning money that is originally budgeted elsewhere creates a need for money to cover expenses. This money needs to come from somewhere and that somewhere is generally the Federal Reserve.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:09 AM #52
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Originally Posted by idesofmarch315 View Post
Did you even read my other post? Even if people save the money, most likely (unless they are truly ignorant) they will put it into a bank, the bank will then take 90% of that (kindasorta) and invest it in the form of loans, which OMG will be used to buy things beneficial to our economy.
Did you watch the video? What about the people who donate it to animal shelters? However small a percentage that is, my point is still valid, not everyone will use it in a way beneficial to the economy.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:11 AM #53
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First, horrible analogy.

Second, I don't think he is trying to argue the effectiveness of the tax rebate. Whether it is spent or saved the money will make its way into the economy, unless people burn it or just put it in a safe at home or something similar. I think he is arguing the effect of taking $150 billion in tax collections that would normally go into the government's budget, and returning it to the people which creates a deficit in the budget. Some of the money will undoubtedly be returned to the budget through various other taxes but that is not a very large portion.

If the annual budget created a surplus that covered the rebate then it would be fine because the money being returned would not have otherwise been spent(this is also in an ideal scenario where there is no total deficit that needs to be paid back). In a situation where the annual budget is already in the red, returning money that is originally budgeted elsewhere creates a need for money to cover expenses. This money needs to come from somewhere and that somewhere is generally the Federal Reserve.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:13 AM #54
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Did you watch the video? What about the people who donate it to animal shelters? However small a percentage that is, my point is still valid, not everyone will use it in a way beneficial to the economy.
Who cares how they use it it's their money in the first place

What a stupid video and guess what, an animal shelter building a new kennel actually does benefit the economy.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:19 AM #55
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Did you watch the video? What about the people who donate it to animal shelters? However small a percentage that is, my point is still valid, not everyone will use it in a way beneficial to the economy.
Oh, it all makes sense now. Instead of spending that money, the animals shelters are going to use it to feed their homeless dogs, thus removing all this money from the economy. I can't believe I didn't see this all along
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:22 AM #56
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Oh, it all makes sense now. Instead of spending that money, the animals shelters are going to use it to feed their homeless dogs, thus removing all this money from the economy. I can't believe I didn't see this all along
You don't get it, the dogs are actually going to eat the money






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Old 02-18-2008, 02:26 AM #57
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The deficit is a completely separate problem, requiring a separate solution, and is irrelevant in terms of the tax rebate's effectiveness.

Even then, it's possible that the increase in spending from these rebates will actually create the same or increased revenue to the government, even though taxes have been lowered. I don't know how to do all of the math involved, so I'll just leave that as speculation, but it is possible.
This kicker would only help our current economic issue if 80% of reciptiants buy "Made in the U.S.A.". Otherwise the money leaves the country!

And this is just a short term fix anyways people!
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:31 AM #58
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This kicker would only help our current economic issue if 80% of reciptiants buy "Made in the U.S.A.". Otherwise the money leaves the country!

And this is just a short term fix anyways people!
If the goods are physically bought in the USA, then a chunk of the money still stays here. You've got things like salespeople making commission, truckers who move the goods from warehouse to store, blah blah blah. All those sorts of people are positively affected by increased sales.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:33 AM #59
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You don't understand at all. The deficit requires a completely different, unrelated solution. You can't drag that into a discussion about the effectiveness of a tax rebate because it is irrelevant.

The government is not pulling money out of thin air. Period. The money is there, you've already earned it. They're LOWERING tax rates. You don't pay as much in taxes for 2007, so your income is increased. That's all this is. It's not pulling money out of thin air, stop saying that because it's absolutely wrong. The money already exists and belongs to you. They're taking money that you normally spend on government (through taxes) and allowing you to spend it wherever you want. That's not pulling money out of thin air.

The rebate will not affect inflation at all. It can't. Inflation is caused by the demand for money changing relative to the supply of money. A tax rebate does not change either. It will not affect inflation.
Ok, than smart guy! If we got $150bn in monies to give back to the people, yet we have failing infanstructure and instead of fixing our problem we throw our solution out the window(solution=$$$), were's the logic in that?

Homeless, bad schools, poor health care, boarder problems, rising energy cost, social programs, did I miss anything that money could help! All that is part of U.S. and that fake money, if you didn't know!

However, being the Bush Administration, logic is something I don't expect from those tyrants-
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:21 AM #60
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PDX, you know you can't fix those problems by the gov't throwing money at them. They'll get fixed when people take those services back from the gov't.
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:15 AM #61
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This kicker would only help our current economic issue if 80% of reciptiants buy "Made in the U.S.A.". Otherwise the money leaves the country!

And this is just a short term fix anyways people!
Untrue. Even if 100% of the money is spent on foreign goods, it benefits our economy.

I'll elabortate later on the rest of the thread. I have an 8 AM class so I don't have time right now.

But basically, everyone needs to forget the debt when it comes to this rebate. It's a separate issue. This thread isn't about the national deficit. It's about spurring the economy back into it's normal growth. It's irrelevant. If you want to argue about how to repay the deficit, start a new thread. The deficit needs to be solved through budgeting and cost cutting, and it's a completely separate problem from this tax rebate. The tax rebate will do exactly what it is intendid for.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:09 AM #62
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The money will get put back into the economy no matter who gets it, to say otherwise is just poor understanding of economics.
If I'm not mistaken, the underlying issue is consumer confidence. Back in December, retailers were almost depending on consumers to spend their money, and it never happened.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:12 PM #63
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If I'm not mistaken, the underlying issue is consumer confidence. Back in December, retailers were almost depending on consumers to spend their money, and it never happened.
It still doesn't matter though, whether you spend the rebate or put it in the bank, the money is going back into the economy.
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